[Quix]

Proddys have been relentlessly told hereon, that many of the above assertions [made here by a Roman Catholic in highly respected leadership and good standing within the Roman Catholic sub-culture]--Proddys have been relentlessly told that a good chunk of the above assertions are NOT AT ALL TRUE for Roman Catholics. Further that such ideas are therefore "LIES" about Roman Catholics and Roman Catholic beliefs perpetrated by Proddys who are maliciously lying or totally clueless and ignorant about Roman Catholocism to even dare to think such horrid hogwash.

We have also been repeatedly told that the Vatican edifice is a homogeneous institution with a seamless, congruent, non-fractured set of dogma stretching all the way from Noah [would you believe Peter?] to the present with no significant modification, correction or deviation.

This document demonstrates that notion is also a falsehood, at best. Various assertions above have been contradicted at various points throughout the Vatican's existence from 300-400 AD to the present.

[Quix]

200 lb canary . . .

“Here kitty, kitty . . .”

[dangus]

Gee, Quix... these are freverently defended all the time around this forum. About the most controversial is probably “there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church,” in which case the author of this list glosses over the caveats, probably in reaction to people making the caveats are the rule.

(Protestants *may* be saved through extraordinary grace if their rejection of Catholicism is due to “Indefatiguable ignorance.” “May” in this case refers to the condition that the Catholic Church cannot know, so rather places its hope in an all-loving God; it means it’s hypothetically possible, not as in “yes, you ‘may’ go to the front of the class.” “Indefatiguable ignorance” means that miseducation prevents an ardent soul from accepting the Catholic Church despite a fervent desire to obey Christ. It does not mean, “Well, I grew up Methodist, so I stayed Methodist. I think that many Catholics, even here, expect that “extraordinary” means “quite typical” rather than “outside of the ordinary.”)

[Conservative4Life]

Thanks for this..

[TheBattman]

LEst we forget that the Vatican has contradicted itself and scripture many times throughout the history of the Catholic Church... I do believe that Catholics have something very much in common with other Christian denominations - there are those who stick to the teachings of the particular faith with sincere heart and longsuffering. And there are others who are "Catholic In Name Only", much like there are "Baptists in Name Only" (I know some personally). IF not for some significant might (physical), the Catholic Church might very well have had a much larger fracture when the Roman Bishop was made into the head of the entire organized Church. Many who were considered "radicals" (Cyprian of Carthage being one example that I have done some fairly extensive research on) strongly objected to a centralized head, believing that all bishops held equal authority. Many paid with their lives. Odd how many of such characters, centuries later, were canonized as "Saints". Much of their objections and conflicts with the Roman Church have been whitewashed. And there isn't enough time or bandwidth to exhaust the argument regarding "Apostolic Succession"... Much of the Nw Testament, particularly those letters by the hand of Paul, don't mention Peter in a light that would indicate or even hint that he had some significantly more important roll than any of the other faithful apostles (or disciples beyond the "inner circle" of apostles. Only that Peter (Cephas) was another great co-worker. Matthew 16:18 - ONE single verse, that taken in context and according to linguistic logic, does not bestow a particular title on Peter, but instead uses Peter's FAITH at that time as an example of what the Church would be built upon. For a church is not a building or even an organization - it is faithful people. Does God call people to leadership positions? Most certainly - Ephesians 4 does a great job of pointing out some examples of such - and bear in mind the terminology - and its origins (some modern translations actually do a good job of the closest literal translation)... I have spent time speaking with Roman Catholic clergy, as well as other similar faiths (Anglican/Episcopalian - which I grew up a part of). And the last thing I care to address briefly - Salvation. From where does it come? The Bible is quite clear and needs no special interpretation. For it is by Grace ye are save, not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, than none should boast. Works is not just "good deeds". Works are the acts of faith that should be the outward demonstration OF our faith. Works should be a result - our "act of thanksgiving" as I have heard it put for the Gift of Eternal life that we do not and cannot earn or deserve. Partaking of participation in rituals falls under the category of works. The Lord's Supper (communion/etc.) is (should be) a solemn memorial of Christ and His redeeming work on the Cross.

1 Corinthians 11:25-26-...do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me. For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes. Translators of various times have often not helped the confusion - often leaving known translation errors because the mis-translated portion has become ingrained and so well-known... (based upon a correct reading of the original language applying the grammar of the time). ACts 2:38 being one of the most obvious (and the centerpiece of Church of Christ doctrine (yes, I know this is primarily a Catholic-related thread).

[married21]

The things I’ve run into that Catholics didn’t know, but should are:
1. They don’t know they shouldn’t visit psychics or do astrology, or they don’t know the reason why.
2. Yoga exercises are Hindu prayer positions and Eastern forms of meditation leave God out of it entirely, and most Catholics don’t know that they are doing something pagan when they do those things. Also, Christians don’t have karma, i.e. “what goes around comes around.” Rather, we get what we don’t deserve— God’s abundant mercy and grace.
3. They don’t really know the reasons why fornication and cohabitation are wrong, so they go ahead and live together before marriage.
4. They don’t really know the reasons why homosexual conduct is wrong.

[Legatus]

I’m having a great deal of trouble understanding where your objection intersects with the article you have posted.

Are you saying the Roman Church no longer teaches the 10 items listed or that you simply disagree with all 10?

Regardless I agree with your initial objection that “just about every case” has to do with people not understanding what the Church teaches. Well I suppose it could be the case for the author but every ex/former Catholic I’ve ever met in real life left over “procreative issues”. They understood exactly what the Catholic Church teaches in that area.

I am quite sure that people do exist who had some other reason, I have a great deal of difficulty doing the right thing and assuming good will on the part of persons who claim that sexual “freedom” had nothing to do with the decision though. Every time I’ve gotten into any sort of deep conversation in the real world with someone who left the Catholic Church it eventually boils down to some variation of “the Pope no playa da game, he no maka da rules”... which is sort of like saying “the only good therapist is a psychotic therapist”, but there it is.

Beyond all that, whatever else you may think the Catholic Church teaches, let’s make one thing abundantly and unavoidably clear: Jesus Christ, without Him nothing matters. He is the only reason for doing anything that’s worth doing.

Without Him being exactly Who He is our existence is pointless, and He is the Eternal Son of the Ever-living Father. God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God. Anything less and there’s just no reason to get out of bed in the morning.

Jesus Christ is the ONLY hope for a lost and dying world. His mother can’t save anyone and His Father won’t save anyone who tries to get around the Son.

That’s what the Catholic Church teaches, at least that’s what the Church has taught me and anyone who hasn’t had that all but crammed down his throat isn’t paying attention to the Church. Everything else hinges on the glorious, adorable, worshipful, Person of Jesus Christ. Praised be Jesus Christ, now and forever!

No matter what year AD someone believes the Roman Church started there is no way for an honest person to avoid the only message that Church has shouted, cried, screamed, yelled and begged a fallen humanity to hear throughout all those centuries: Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, He lived, suffered and died, for YOU! and He rose from the dead that we might have eternal life. Hear Him, and do whatever He tells you.

Do fallen men, within and without, confuse the message? Of course. Do wicked men, within and without, actively attempt to obscure it? Of course.

Is that an excuse to claim the message isn’t there? I hope it is but all signs point to: No.

One can say, “but the Romans also teach X and Y and I think they even believe Z!” However one should never forget, and never obscure and never confuse or downplay in any way the bottom line upon which all else rests:

“Cling, therefore, to Jesus in life and death; trust yourself to the glory of Him who alone can help you when all others fail.” - The Imitation of Christ, Thomas à Kempis

“the salvation of mankind does not depend on material success; nor on sciences that cloud the intellect. Neither does it depend on arms and human industries, but on Jesus alone.” - St. Frances Xavier Cabrini

“Love God, serve God: everything is in that” - St. Clare of Assisi

[Gamecock]

Typical smoke and mirrors, Roman Catholic doctrine wise.

[OpusatFR]

Pass. I have too much to do with promoting charity in the community and dealing with secularists to pay attention to those whose idea of Christianity is to pick at sores.

[Campion]

Far from "just about every case," probably a major chunk of such folks were heavily well trained in the hallowed halls of the Institution.

"Probably a major chunk," huh?

Quix, from roughly 1962 to 1985, "The Institution" couldn't "heavily well train" itself out of a wet paper bag. I was born in 1960. My folks pulled me out of religious ed when I was in 5th grade because they could see (correctly) that it was a complete waste of time. Five classes worth of confirmation prep in high school didn't amount to much, either.

Catholics who are "heavily well trained" today either (a) were "trained" outside those years; or (b) trained themselves.

Obviously, a Catholic who doesn't know his faith is going to be easy pickings for you guys. How can he refute your attacks on his faith if he doesn't even know his faith? Could a conservative refute liberal attacks on the Constitution without knowing the Constitution? Of course not.

But what do I know? I'm only a Romanist who doesn't know the Bible, and if I did know the Bible, I wouldn't be a Romanist any more. (Now that's funny ... LOL)

[metmom]

7. There Is No Salvation Outside Of The Catholic Church – Originally stated by St. Cyprian, the Latin axiom “Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus” reminds us that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. This dogma was declared at the Fourth Lateran Council and is a source of confusion for Catholics and non-Catholics alike. According to the Catechism, all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is His Body. It does not mean that non-Catholics cannot achieve salvation. Individuals who are unaware that the Catholic Church is the one, true Church may still achieve salvation through the merits of the Church, despite their lack of knowledge.

But, but ,but, I've been told, over and over, strongly and emphatically, that that is NOT what the Catholic church teaches, that I've made it up, that I'm mistaken, that I'm relating contrived anecdotes.

How can this be?!?!?!

[Lee N. Field]

Be watchful for sleight of hand. For instance,

There Is No Salvation Outside Of The Catholic Church – Originally stated by St. Cyprian, the Latin axiom “Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus” reminds us that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.

Many protestants would confess and affirm "outside the church there is ordinarily no possibility of salvation". But, by church, we don't mean the Roman church which arrogates to itself authority over all God's people.

4. The Mass Is The Same Sacrifice As Calvary – The biggest mistake that many Catholics make is treating the Holy Mass as “just another church service”, similar to those held by other religions. In the Mass, Christ’s Sacrifice on the Cross is made present, its memory is celebrated and its saving power is applied.

Modern expositions of RC doctrine I've seen seem to be carefully worded so as not to alarm slumbering Protestants. We've seen this elsewhere.

In the Heidelberg Catechism, a classic protestant catechism from the 16th century, Question 80 deals with the difference between the Lord's supper and the mass. It's a straightforward condemnation. I suspect at the time both sides knew very well what the other taught.

The copy I have, published by a church body most known lately (sadly) for a denominational long march into liberalism, has a note by question 80, that the modern Roman Catholic church does not believe this. Ecumenical wishful thinking?

I'd love to get a straight answer on this. I'll probably have to go back a century or so.

Catholics Don’t Worship Mary And The Saints

They pray to saints, and call it that.* "But that's not worship." Riiiight. What Would Moses Do?

(psssst! Ask them about justification. Ask them how one is made right with God.)

*(In the link Dearest Nancy recounted praying to St. Joseph for the passage of 0bamacare. Freerepublican amusement was derived from the fact that she was praying to the wrong St. Joseph, not the act itself.)

[ichabod1]

Silly prots. Always after me lucky charms.

[Salvation]

You’ve even put anti-Catholicism into the title and source lines.

Just the facts, man, just the facts.

[Salvation]

Ten Facts Most Catholics Don’t Know (But Should!) (Catholic Caucus)

 

This is the truth, folks.  Check it out!

[bobjam]

Item #7 -no salvation outside the Church- is often misinterpreted.

The concept that the Church is Christ’s Body is correct and legit. Problems arise when some define Christ’s Body to be totally and exclusively the institution headed by the Bishop of Rome, commonly called the Roman Catholic Church. This leads to the erroneous claim that those persons who are members of the Roman Catholic Church are guaranteed salvation but those who are not members of the Roman Catholic Church are condemned. Those who believe as such make the Catechism self-contradictory. As pointed out in the posting, it is possible for non-Catholics to achieve salvation. If the Church is exclusively the Catholic Church, and non-Catholics can achieve salvation, then there is salvation outside the Church.

The Church, that is, Christ’s Body, is the mystical community of all who belong to Christ. Wherever two or three are gathered in His Name, He will be there. Believers are required to be in fellowship with one another; there is no room for a so-called “lone-ranger” Christian.

[metmom]

Every time I hear someone claim to be an “ex-Catholic”, a sense of sadness comes over me. In just about every case, people leave the Catholic Faith due to a lack of understanding.

Wishful thinking on his part.

On the contrary, that is the knee jerk reaction from every Catholic. We *ex's* know perfectly well why we left and it IS because we "really" understood Catholic doctrine.

I just love how that has become the catch all these days.

If you "really" understood fill in the blank, of course you'd believe like I do. You couldn't help yourself.

[Grunthor]

“There Is No Salvation Outside Of The Catholic Church”

Boy, I am sure glad that Jesus disagrees with them.

[strider44]

So Catholics can’t go to a Yoga class? That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. I’ll have to tell my wife that one (she goes to Yoga 3 times a week)

“Forgive me Father for I have sinned...I did 3 Downward Facingn Dogs, 2 Crows, 1 Cobra, and 3 One-Legged King Pigeon Poses this week...”

Will I now suffer the fires of hell?