Mormons are powerful people. And don't you forget it.
Posted on 07/07/2010 3:31:19 PM PDT by Colofornian
Emma's [Joseph Smith's first of 33 or so wives] father, Isaac Hale, recorded the following in an affidavit:
"The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret, was the same as when he looked for the money-diggers, with a stone in his hat, and his hat over his face, while the Book of Plates were at the same time hid in the woods." (Affidavit of Isaac Hale dated March 20, 1834, cited in Rodger I. Anderson's, "Joseph Smith's New York Reputation Re-examined," [Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1990], pages 126-128.)
David Whitmer was one of the three witnesses to the Book of Mormon. Most of the translating was done in his home. And he describes in detail the method used by Smith:
"Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine.
A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal [sic] scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear.
Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man." ("An Address to All Believers in Christ," page 12.) (Elder Russell M. Nelson, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, used this same quote in his article, "A Treasured Testament," Ensign, July, 1993, page 62.)
There is plenty of other evidence available, all along the same lines, that makes it clear that Joseph Smith "translated" the Book of Mormon by placing his head inside his hat and peering at his occultic stone. Not only did he not look at these elusive gold plates himself during his "translation," but nobody else ever saw them either. Those who had originally testified that they had seen them readily admitted that it had only been with their spiritual eyes, in a sort of a vision.
His ambushers were pretty good in knowing the exact zig zag path he would take through the woods.
With neighboring ruffians seeking the plates, thinking they were of great monetary worth...Two questions:
1. How did the neighboring ruffians come to find out about the plates?
2. The wording of this implies that the plates weren't of great monetary value. Weren't they?
:-)
Strangely, mormons would say stuff like that in all seriousness. I wanted to make sure!
Smith stated, “These records were engraven on plates which had the appearance of gold, each plate was six inches wide and eight inches long, and not quite so thick as common tin. They were filled with engravings, in Egyptian characters, and bound together in a volume as the leaves of a book, with three rings running through the whole. The volume was something near six inches in thickness, a part of which was sealed” (History of the Church 4:537)
Well that answers a question I had last week but forgotten.
How could you get all that writing on two plates but, indeed it was a book, maybe.
But now we come to claiming the “Plates” or pages were not of pure gold but were of a Central American alloy?
One is given pause to ask “Central American alloy?”. Really?
How did an alloy get from Central America to New York and why would the book of Mormon be inscribed on it?
I doubt it would be of the exact consistency of 66% copper and 33% gold as there is no evidence of metallurgy, anywhere in the Americas, that would exist at the time of the manufacture of the Book of Mormon.
With neighboring ruffians seeking the plates, thinking they were of great monetary worth.
How did the man know exactly the route that Smith would take?
How could he possibly not know he had a dislocated thumb?
An "angel" conveniently took them back to heaven.
Who was this "angel?" (The same "angel" that sits atop Mormon temples in place of any cross)
Who are angels according to Joseph Smith? And particularly who was Moroni?
Answer: "Moroni, who deposited the plates in a hill in Manchester, Ontario County, New York, being dead and raised again therefrom, appeared unto me, and told me where they were, and gave me directions how to obtain them." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119)
Did you realize that this "angel" of whom the Mormon religion is based upon is a 'ghost'?
So who was Moroni per Smith? Why, he was a deceased spirit. A ghost. A ghost was the jumpstarter of Mormonism!
Also, why would Smith even need "gold plates" to translate anything? After all, he didn't have original New Testament manuscripts when he rifled through that and made hundreds of changes in the KJV? (Imagine that: translating a KJV English Bible into English -- and not simply paraphrasing it for a more "modern" rendering)
Everyone on this thread so far has ignored the obvious.
I wanna be the first to state: "God gave Joseph the strength of ten! You antis bing bang flipperdoodledoo!"
Surely you wrote that tongue-in-cheek! The 8 “witnesses” were anything but men of character... I’ll take it as humor :-) [aMorePerfectUnion, post #16]
Well, aMorePerfectUnion did a good summary of the "character" of the "witnesses" -- many excommunicated (I believe over half of them); not including others who left the church.
Here, read AMPU's summary: Character of the 11 Witnesses Post #805
And what? They didn't know where their neighbors lived in those rural times?
The ruffians didn't follow them home? Or visit later?
Smith "outsprint" this ruffian (and any other) all three miles home, lugging the loot?
Mormons are powerful people. And don't you forget it.
And again, Mormons tend to ignore the most basic of issues:
* What evidence is there of "reformed Egyptian" even existing, especially in the Americas?
* Why would Jews in the Americas choose to write in the language of their enemies?
* So what if they needed to "save space" -- why not another language than selecting the language of their enemies?
* And if they needed to "save space" why do we have sentences in the BoM (4 Nephi 1:6) that's 57 words -- only to say that 59 years had passed!
Why would someone writing on a tight gold plate be so wordy?
In fact, if you look at the original 3 Nephi 21:2-7 (1830 version)...these six verses are actually all one sentence!
Why again does this matter?
Well, look at the way this Mormon apologist closed out his recent Mormon Times article:
When you take into consideration that the plates were engraved in space-saving reformed Egyptian, because, as Moroni wrote, "if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew," there appears to be room to spare (See Mormon 9:33). (Michael De Groote, "How gold were the golden plates?" Mormon Times, July 7, 2010)
According to Colleen Ralson, in her 1988 booklet, "Color Me Confused," p. 49 (Watchman Fellowship)-- as she commented upon the original verbiage of 3 Nephi 21:2-7 written as just one sentence in the original 1830 version:
'Father' is used 8 times,
'Gentile' 5 times,
'shall come forth' 4 times,
'that' and 'which' 20 times,
and 'me,' 'I' and 'my' over 11 times.
This Mormon Jesus is a lot more expressive in his statements than the Jesus of the Bible, who averaged only 19 words per sentence.
The foundation myths of all religions are ridiculous to the non-believer. This one is no stranger than the notion of virgin birth or a talking snake and a magic apple. If one doesn’t believe, it all sounds literally unbelievable; if one does believe it sounds like gospel truth, literally.
I can never understand how otherwise rational people can believe in this stuff.
But, heck, that’s their business and not mine.
What if it wasn’t physical gold at all, but rather, share certificates of a gold Exchange Traded Fund?
I’ve read over and over, right here on Free Republic, that gold is easier to hold that way. And presumably easier to tuck under your arm and run with, too. Even a whole book of ‘em wouldn’t weigh that much.
Besides, you could write the gibberish on the back of the ETF certs in ordinary pen-and-ink. No engraving necessary.
Someone in FR mentioned Mark Twain’s “Roughing It” and the chapter on Mormonism. If you want true sarcasm, he was the master. He goes on and on about those 8 witnesses, and how they are mostly in two families and that he (Twain) doesn’t even NEED the other members of those families to swear they saw the plates... well, anyway, I’m not going to try to remember the details of his sarcasm. Read it. It is Epic Wit.
He would most likely have dropped them in a bog of some sort and they’d have dissolved ... then he’d have to come up with some other story like he found a metal scroll of some sort made out of gold ....
When Joseph Smith put on the magic spectacles, the plates transmographied into gold....bigger question might be...Does Glenn Beck believe this stuff?
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