Posted on 07/05/2010 10:02:12 AM PDT by chatter4
Great video by an independent theist, who has researched Christianity for many years. From the video desciption: "Christians insist that Jesus was nailed to a cross and that after his resurrection, that he showed his disciples the wounds on his hands and his feet. There is not one verse in the Bible that says Jesus was nailed to a cross or that says he showed his wounded hands and feet to anyone. The Bible does say that he was hung on a tree or from a timber.
These four verses claim that the two thieves received the same punishment that Jesus did. They all say the thieves were crucified.
Matthew 27:38 "Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left." Mark 15:27 "And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left." Luke 23:33 "And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left." John 19:18 "Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst." However, this verse says they were hung, so clearly, to be crucified means to be hung. Luke 23:39 "And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us."
This is not the same word which was used to describe Judas being hung. That word clearly meant to be choked or strangled, but, crucifixtion certainly must mean to be suspended from something, and the method used to suspend one from a timber or a tree may have varied."
Chatter i think you have made a serious error in logic here, trying to prove a negative with the proposition that “Jesus was hung on the cross,” and “Jesus was not nailed to the Cross.”
The first phrase does not serve as a proof of the second. It is simply insufficient. Further, given our historical knowledge of common Roman Crucifixion practice, nails were commonly used. This was so that they could drive the point home that they were being punished. :o)
Not so. The Greek reads almost exactly as the KJV translates it. And tupos does not mean "shape" in any sense. Literally, it means the stamp of a die; when used of the human body, it means "scar".
“There is not one verse in the entire Bible that says Jesus was nailed to anything.
Of course, you are right! There isn’t one verse, there are many!!”
Quote just one verse that clearly states that Jesus was nailed to something.
“Read John chapter 20 and tell us again that Jesus was not “nailed to any thing”!”
There is no mention of Jesus being nailed to anything in John 20 or any ther chapter in the Bible. Are you going to claim that the only way to get a mark on your hand from a nail is if you are impaled by it? People receive cuts from staples every day. Does that mean they were stapled to something? Wasn’t Jesus scourged? It is well known that the Romans attached nails, glass and bone to their flogs.
You should read the passage again yourself, and, if you are willing to be honest about it, you will see it does not say Jesus was nailed or attached in any manner to anything in John 20.
25So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it.”(John
Now you are simply being needlessly quarrelsome. If you simply don’t believe the crucifiction and resurrection story then say you don’t believe it, but trying to prove your point by pointing out some supposed inconsistency about Christ being nailed or not nailed simply has you “nailed” as a moonbat. They also don’t like to deal with the reality right in front of them, choosing instead to live in their own mirey wallow of narcissism!
Thomas knew Christ had been nailed, says so in John 20. Thomas said he wasn’t going to believe until he could put his fingers right into the nail holes.
That's your argument in one sentence, and it won't hunt. You are also forgetting that the Apostles wrote in koine, trader Greek, which was rough, literal, and downright earthy. It is foolish to look for literary and recondite "analogies" in translating the Gospel text; most often, it means exactly what it says. Thomas said he would thrust his finger into the scar - tupos - of the nails - he:loi - and that text alone refutes all your fancies.
“Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.”
That is a false translation. There is no mention of the act of nailing or mention of a cross in the Greek texts.
Act 2:23 “Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain” (KJV)
Look at Luke 23:33 “And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.” So, if Jesus was nailed as you claim, certainly, the two malefactors were nailed also-they were all crucified right?
Now look at Luke 23:39 “And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.” Now we read that the malefactors were hanged. Clearly this does not mean hanged by the neck, or they could not speak. The word means suspended. There is no mention of a cross or nails in any of these passages. Why do you find you need to add to the Bible things that are not there?
“That is a false translation.” - That is the NIV translation; not a perfect translation but not at all “false”. I’m assuming you believe that the Bible (original texts), in any language, is “false” so why do you care which translation is used?
“There is no mention of the act of nailing or mention of a cross in the Greek texts.” - Incorrect. Nailing or nails (Strong’s 4338 & 2247) : Col. 2:14, Jn 20:25. Cross (Strong’s 4716) : Mt 10:38, 16:24,...etc
“Act 2:23 “Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain” (KJV)” - I prefer the King James Version or the New King James Version as well..
“So, if Jesus was nailed as you claim, certainly, the two malefactors were nailed also-they were all crucified right?” - Yes, they were all crucified. However, the manner in which Christ was crucified left nail prints in his hands...
gotta go
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