Posted on 07/05/2010 10:02:12 AM PDT by chatter4
Great video by an independent theist, who has researched Christianity for many years. From the video desciption: "Christians insist that Jesus was nailed to a cross and that after his resurrection, that he showed his disciples the wounds on his hands and his feet. There is not one verse in the Bible that says Jesus was nailed to a cross or that says he showed his wounded hands and feet to anyone. The Bible does say that he was hung on a tree or from a timber.
These four verses claim that the two thieves received the same punishment that Jesus did. They all say the thieves were crucified.
Matthew 27:38 "Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left." Mark 15:27 "And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left." Luke 23:33 "And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left." John 19:18 "Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst." However, this verse says they were hung, so clearly, to be crucified means to be hung. Luke 23:39 "And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us."
This is not the same word which was used to describe Judas being hung. That word clearly meant to be choked or strangled, but, crucifixtion certainly must mean to be suspended from something, and the method used to suspend one from a timber or a tree may have varied."
Actually, the Watchtower has published both notions. I have seen drawings in the WT depicting Jesus impaled on a vertical stake, facing the sky; and I have seen drawings depicting him nailed to a stake with no crossbeam. But what they do not believe is that he was crucified. Nor do they believe that his death paid the penalty for man's sin. Nor do they believe he was resurrected in bodily form. Nor do they believe that he is God, the Son.
It is a shame, actually, because some JW's are very nice people.
I find this chatter4 post, found in the comments under his YouTube video "Who or what is Lucifer? Pt 1", to be IMO more illuminating than all of his posts on FR combined. Check it out:
The serpent has always been the symbol of enlightenment, but in the Bible, the serpent is a symbol of both good and evil. Look at the story of St. Patrick destroying the serpents in Ireland. What he did in fact is bring Roman Catholism to the isle, and destroyed those that knew the truth.
My post at 57 seems even more accurate given your most recent, Alex.
I checked some of the other videos, too. Honestly, people who think like this should be shunned like the Westboro tribe.
Insofar as the significance of the Cross to all humanity is concerned, in many ways it really doesn’t matter if our Lord Christ Jesus was nailed, tied, Velcro’d or welded to the Cross.
The significant issue is that in His humanity, He remained faithful to the Plan of God the Father in going to the Cross, having all of humanity’s personal sins imputed to Him, and Him being judged for them in sacrificial atonement, redeeming all sin of mankind, by being judged for sin on the Cross.
He redeemed the sins of humanity, atoned for us sacrificially, reconciling man to God the Father, and propitiated His wrath, thereby providing the Perfect Sacrifice, which met the Perfect Justice of God in His Perfect Righteousness, by which now God the Father is free in His perfect Justice and righteousness to provide us a regenerated spirit by His grace and mercy immediately whenever any believer exercised just a little more faith than no faith whatsoever in what Christ performed in the Cross.
Er, it ate all of my line-breaks. Sorry, let’s try again.
He’s not 100% wrong; yet, because of his overly pedantic attitude I’ll “language lawyer” a bit.
He said: “The serpent has always been the symbol of enlightenment, but in the Bible, the serpent is a symbol of both good and evil. Look at the story of St. Patrick destroying the serpents in Ireland. What he did in fact is bring Roman Catholism to the isle, and destroyed those that knew the truth.”
The serpent is a symbol of WISDOM in the bible, not ‘enlightenment,’ else why would Jesus say “be as wise as serpents, yet as harmless as doves.”?
In the bible the serpent is also a symbol of the devil, but in those cases the bible is pretty consistent in flatly saying so (see Revelation).
The serpent has heavy connections with pagan religions and therein is commonly given an association with fertility (because of their many eggs).
The story of St Patrick could be seen as banishing those snakes, the ones connected with paganism... or it could be taken literally, James [the book] says that our faith is useless if we, seeing a brother or sister naked and destitute, say “be warm and well-fed” yet do nothing to help them with nakedness and lack of sustenance.
I have some HUGE disagreements with Roman Catholics on theological matters. (The perpetual virginity of Mary, praying *to* saints & angles, etc.) Yet I am reluctant/loathe to take a broad brush and say “all Roman Catholics are not Christians.” As a case in point, Mother Theressa is very likely much more of a Christian in her bearing and attitude and impact than I will ever be... and she WAS Roman Catholic.
The same could be said of Mormonism, there are things there that are as disturbing and incorrect as the Catholic church’s embraced theology. HOWEVER, I do see that they try/strive to live a more moral life than many “nominal Christians.” One thing the Mormon Church does do that far surpasses other Christian churches [as a denomination] in America is making people feel like they belong/are-needed/are-useful; look at how they assign jobs (like landscaping or building maintainence) among their congregants.
Jesus said that “a city set on a hill cannot be hid” and likewise we see light banishing the darkness wherever it is present. So even if there is a lot of crap in Roman Catholicism or Mormonism or ‘nominal Christianity’ so long as there is even a hint of the redemptive power of Jesus’ work there is a chance that a sinner may come to god through that organization: this is the power of Jesus Christ, who is the Light of the World.
Boy, two points.
- Don’t insult my faith. Pisses me off royally.
- You’re on the wrong site.
” But Thomas (who was called the Twin), one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands, and put my finger in the mark of the nails and my hand in his side, I will not believe.” A week later his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were shut, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it in my side. Do not doubt but believe.” Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe.” Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book. But these are written so that you may come to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through believing you may have life in his name.” John 20
Read John chapter 20 and tell us again that Jesus was not “nailed to any thing”!
Yeah, he’s wrong. Look, not to be sacrilegious, but nowhere does the Bible state that Christ ever relieved himself or had a bowel movement.
Safe bet he did both.
These are nonsensical strawman arguments. All this “poster”, or anyone else, needs to do is to actually do some HOMEWORK, do the study, and know what and how and why the Romans did what they did when it came to the disgusting form of execution known as crucifixion.
I don’t feel compelled to educate idiots who simply have an anti-Christian agenda. In fact, such people just piss me off. These are the same little spineless dweebs who would never, ever say such things to my face or to the faces of most of you.
I loathe keyboard cowards. Don’t grace his spew or his moronic agenda with “well, he’s not 100% wrong....”.
>I loathe keyboard cowards.
Might I ask what, in your opinion, qualifies someone as a “keyboard coward”?
(That is, I’m trying to decide if you just insulted me or not.)
I was calling it as I see it... one such thing, an article I wrote, was pulled from FR because it *is* an unpopular political stance, that and probably the title’s meta-humor: http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0ATyjMtQJe7iWZHY2OTh0bV8yN2htZnBzOWQy&hl=en
>Don’t grace his spew or his moronic agenda with “well, he’s not 100% wrong....”.
He wasn’t though, you certainly cannot have enlightenment without wisdom... and some people [incorrectly] equate the two.
Amen to you post.
Not you............the poster. Clear-cut agenda; screw the truth, to heck with facts. Just insult Christianity. I have zero patience with this. As I have told him..........wrong site.
Thank you.
Ah, gotcha.
You still may like the link on my previous post though.
20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."
22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came.
25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"
27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
John 20 19-28 (NIV)
The Book Of Hebrews tells us that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Your attempt to deny his crucifixion and characterize His death as a "hanging" is a denial of His blood, shed for the sins of the world.
Satan wants to deny the blood of Christ too. You both lose.
Many, many reasons (not the least of which is a fairly deep knowledge of Roman crucifixion procedures)....but I won’t provide an entire course here.
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Ditto. I did my Senior Thesis (undergrad) on Roman crucifixion.
All the ‘Jesus wasn’t nailed to a Cross’ have been debunked decades ago.
And you are right, chatter, there isn’t ONE verse in the Bible that says Jesus was nailed to the cross. There are SEVERAL as have been shown.
“Let’s just get this all out in the open now, shall we? More of chatter4 on YouTube”
Did you not read the article? Did you see the word “vanity” anywhere? Your remarks clearly show that you easily jump to conclusions that are not based on fact. Nowhere was it stated that I posted this or any other video
on Youtube, except by you. I guess you find it easier to deal with fantasy, regardless of what the stated facts are-thus your belief that Jesus was nailed to a cross, when the Bible says he was hung.
Of course, you are right! There isn't one verse, there are many!! Some crucifixions were with hands and feet tied to cross beams and some were also nailed through. Jesus was pierced through his hands and feet. You may not have read those parts yet?
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