Is Sola Scriptura biblical? {Open)

www.cronos.com ^ | 31-May-2010 | Self Topic

[Cronos]

1. Where does the Bible claim sola scriptura?

2. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteous- ness; That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." --> it doesn't say that Scriptura is sufficient, just that it is profitable i.e. helpful. the entire verse from 14 to 17 says "But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God (Greek: theopneustos = "God-breathed"), and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works"
3. Where else do we have the term "sola scriptura" in the Bible?

4. Matthew 15 - Jesus condemns corrupt tradition, not all tradition. At no point is the basic notion of traidition condemned

5. 2 Thessalonians 2:15 "So then, brehtern, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter"

6. 1 Timothy 3:14-15

14Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, 15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

note that the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth is The Church of the Living God

7. Nowhere does Scripture reduce God's word down to Scripture ALONE. Instead the Bible tells us in many places that God's authoritative Word is found in The Church: in Tradition (2 Th 2:15, 3:6) and in the Church teaching (1 Pet 1:25, 2 Pet 1:20-21, Mt 18:17). This supports the Church principle of sola verbum Dei, 'the Word of God alone'.

8. The New Testament was compiled at the Council of Hippo in 393 and the Council of Carthage in 397, both of which sent off their judgements to Rome for the Pope's approval.

9. Yet, the people HAD the Canon, the Word of God before the scriptures were compiled, and even before some were written

10. Books that were revered in the 1st and 2nd centuries were left out of canon. Book slike the Epistle of Barnabas, the Shepherd of Hermas and the Acts of Paul. Why?

11. There were disputes over 2 Peter, Jude and Revelation, yet they are in Scripture. Whose decision was trustworthy and final, if the Church doesn't teach with infallible authority?

12. How are Protestants sure that the 27 books of the New Testaments are themselves the infallible Word of God if fallible Church councils and Patriarchs are the ones who made up or approved the list (leaving out the Acts of Paul, yet leaving in Jude and Revelation)?

13. Or do Protestants have a fallible collection of infallible documents? And how do they know that Jude is infallible? And how do they know that the Epistle of Barnabus is not?

14. "And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ" (Eph. 4:11–15).

[conservativegramma]

The nutshell (mostly) implicitly biblical argument for asking saints to pray for us is as follows:

#1 - We are not talking about living people praying for other living people. BTW: We are all saints according to the bible. (Rom. 1:7; 8:27; I Cor. 1:2; 14:33; 2 Cor. 1:1; 9:1; 9:12; Eph. 1:1 2:19; Col 1:2)

#2 - We are talking about praying to dead Saints, ergo DEAD PEOPLE. God forbids communication with the dead:

Deut. 18:10-12:
10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you.

Leviticus 19:31
Give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits; do not seek after them, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 20:6
And the person who turns after mediums and familiar spirits, to prostitute himself with them, I will set My face against that person and cut him off from his people.

I Chronicles 10:13
So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance.

#3 – Suppose a brother comes and kneels before you, and he implores you with great fervor and devotion to pray for him. Further suppose that he starts calling you his intercessor, his hope and his refuge? Then begins to thank you for bestowing on him grace and deliverance from Hell? Then he moves into conveying his very salvation into your care and pleads with you to stay with him until he gets to heaven??? How do you respond? I know how I would respond – I would refuse and tell him that I’m not the one worthy of worship! (See Acts 14:8-18)

“Most holy, immaculate Virgin and my Mother Mary! To you who are the Mother of my Lord, the Queen of the world, the Advocate, the Hope, and the Refuge of sinners, I have recourse today, I who am the most miserable of all. I render you my most humble homage, O great Queen, and I thank you for all the graces you have conferred on me until now, especially for having delivered me from hell, which I have so often deserved. I love you, O most amiable Lady; and for the love which I bear you, I promise to serve you always and to do all in my power to make others love you also. I place in you all my hopes; I confide my salvation to your care. Accept me for your servant and receive me under your mantle, O Mother of Mercy. And since you are so powerful with God, deliver me from all temptations; or rather, obtain to me the strength to triumph over them until death. Of you I ask a perfect love for Jesus Christ. Through you I hope to die a good death. O my Mother, by the love which you bear to God, I beseech you to help me at all times, but especially at the last moment of my life. Leave me not, I beseech you, until you see me safe in heaven, blessing you and singing your mercies for all eternity. Amen. So I hope. So may it be. (A prayer to Mary from St. Alphonsus)

If you think the above prayer is merely a request to pray for each other rather than a prayer of worship you need a new dictionary describing what worship is!

#4 – Then you move into prayer to Angels: The argument for asking angels to pray can be constructed in similar fashion…. More blasphemy and unbiblical doctrine AGAIN prohibited by God:

Colossians 2:18
Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize….

Rev. 22:8-9
I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. But he said to me, Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!”

#5 – Your quote: Scripture even gives examples of conversation with dead men (Transfiguration, Saul talking to the dead Samuel, etc.) Best go back and read them again. The transfiguration was CHRIST talking to those dead men, i.e, Moses – CHRIST is GOD – bad example. As far as Saul talking to the dead Samuel? Better go back and re-read 1 Samuel 28:3-19 because Saul was punished for that! It was an abomination to God. Because of this deed, Saul’s kingdom was ripped from him and given to David, and he lost his life as a consequence of this action. Another BAD EXAMPLE.

#6 – Then you begin a whole litany of shall we say angelic verses NONE of which support the view that angels are to be prayed to or worshipped. Rev. 22:9 strictly forbids it.

#7 – There is no need to seek out an angel for prayer….we have direct access to God:

Ephesians 2:18
for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.

We are commanded not to pray to angels but DIRECTLY to the Father:

Matthew 6:6
"But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." (See also Luke 11:1-4)

#8 – Angel worship has pagan origins not Christian. Some early Greek philosophers taught that the One, or the ultimate being, was too pure to get close to evil matter. So there were many levels of lesser beings between the One and the material universe. It was a simple step to associate angels with these beings. If people couldn’t approach God, maybe they could these intermediate beings. But we CAN approach God! Eph. 2:18. I’m continually astounded at the paganism that exists within the Catholic Church, and angel worship, Mary worship, veneration of saints, etc. etc. etc. all fit that category.

#9 – You mention Luke 16:19-31. You left out that that passage prohibits the dead contacting the living and vice versa.

#10 – You mention 1 Samuel 28:15-16 and as I pointed out above you left out that Saul was severely punished for this sin of consulting Samuel.

#11 – Mentioning that dead Saints pray for those on earth has nothing whatsoever to do with living saints praying for and worshipping dead saints which is prohibited in Scripture.

#12 – Maccabees is an Apocryphal book and was not accepted as Canon until the 16th century. This was only done to combat the Reformation since the Magisterium needed ‘support’ for their many errors. Hence turning to non-canonical sources and making them canon. Nice trick, still doesn’t fly.

#13 – Revelation 5:8 etc. mentions prayers OF the saints not prayers TO the saints.

#14 – Again the 1 Samuel passage AGAIN ignoring that this whole event was an ABOMINATION.

#15 – AGAIN the transfiguration where the subject was TALKING WITH AND TO CHRIST WHO IS GOD. He is an exception. Why? HE’S GOD WE ARE NOT. You mention the first 4 verses and ignore verse 5 and following where God said: “…..This is my Beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; LISTEN TO HIM!” They were NOT to listen to Moses or Elijah, only Christ held that distinction.

#16 – Your biblical illiteracy, twisting of Scriptural meanings and context, mingling of paganism with Christianity is absolutely appalling, but I thank you. Every time I engage in debate with a Catholic, I come away more convinced than ever that the truth has vanished from the Roman Catholic Church. Had it not been for the Reformation, Satan would have pre-vailed and the gates of hell WOULD HAVE DESTROYED the Church. But Christ kept His Word and Satan did not prevail because of the Reformation. Though those men were imperfect, I have no doubt now after so many ‘discussions’ with Catholics, that those men were raised up by Christ so that His Church would survive. It definitely doesn’t exist any longer in Rome.

[conservativegramma]

A Catholic denies ONE reveled truth and he is a heretic and outside of the Church and condemned to eternal perdition for all eternity, if he dies unrepentant.

The vatican better excommunicate itself then. There's that pesky CCC #841 claiming equality with Allah. Since I don't see THAT happening.....quite a few heretic Catholics get a pass.

[OneWingedShark]

Rev. 22:8-9... A lot of people seem to ignore this bit when discussing “praying to angles;” whereas, when I read it, I always read-into the angle’s reply a bit of surprise [and perhaps incredulousness at the prospect of being worshiped] and... insistence that only God be worshiped.

[Cronos]

1. It is indicated in the Bible
2. It is not contradictory to the Bible. If you say everything should be in the Bible where does the Bible say that? And if everything should be in the Bible, then why do you use the internet or television to preach?

[Cronos]

Bessarion of Nice explained the difference of the Greek and Latin doctrine on this subject. The Latins, he said, allow that now, and until the day of the last judgment, departed souls are purified by fire, and are thus liberated from their sins; so that, he who has sinned the most will be a longer time undergoing purification, whereas he whose sins are less will be absolved the sooner, with the aid of the Church; but in the future life they allow the eternal, and not the purgatorial fire. Thus the Latins receive both the temporal and the eternal fire, and call the first the purgatorial fire. On the other hand, the Greeks teach of one eternal fire alone, understanding that the temporal punishment of sinful souls consists in that they for a time depart into a place of darkness and sorrow, are punished by being deprived of the Divine light, and are purified—that is, liberated from this place of darkness and woe—by means of prayers, the Holy Eucharist, and deeds of charity, and not by fire. The Greeks also believe, that until the union of the souls to the bodies, as the souls of sinners do not suffer full punishment, so also those of the saints do not enjoy entire bliss. But the Latins, agreeing with the Greeks in the first point, do not allow the last one, affirming that the souls of saints have already received their full heavenly reward

In the following sitting the Latins presented a defence of their doctrine on purgatory. As much as can be concluded from the answer given by the Greeks to it, they tried to prove their doctrine by the words of 2 Mac. xii. 42, 46, where it is said that Judas Maccabaeus "sent to Jerusalem to offer a sin offering," remarking at the same time "that it was an holy and good thought. Whereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin." They also quoted the words of Jesus Christ, "Whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." (S. Matt. xii. 32.) But their especial defence was founded on the words of the Apostle S. Paul (I Cor. iii. 11, 15): "For other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." Different extracts were also made by the Latins from the works of the Eastern Fathers—Basil the Great, Epiphanius of Cyprus, John Damascene, Dionysius the Areopagite, Theodoret, Gregory of Nyssa; and the Western—Augustine, Ambrose, and Gregory the Great.

The Eastern Church came to admit of an intermediate state after death, but refrained from defining it so as not to blur the distinction between the alternative fates of Heaven and Hell; it combined with this doctrine a firm belief in the efficacy of prayer for the dead, which was a constant feature of both East and West liturgies. Such prayer is held to be unintelligible without belief in some interim state in which the dead might benefit

Eastern Orthodox teaching is that, while all undergo a Particular Judgment immediately after death, neither the just nor the wicked attain the final state of bliss or punishment before the last day,with some exceptions for righteous souls like the Theotokos (Blessed Virgin Mary), "who was borne by the angels directly to heaven".

Eastern Orthodox theology does not generally describe the situation of the dead as involving suffering or fire, although it nevertheless describes it as a "direful condition". The souls of the righteous dead are in light and rest, with a foretaste of eternal happiness; but the souls of the wicked are in a state the reverse of this. Among the latter, such souls as have departed with faith, but "without having had time to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance..., may be aided towards the attainment of a blessed resurrection [at the end of time] by prayers offered in their behalf, especially those offered in union with the oblation of the bloodless sacrifice of the Body and Blood of Christ, and by works of mercy done in faith for their memory."

The state in which souls undergo this experience is often referred to as "Hades".

The Eastern Orthodox Synod of Jerusalem, held in 1672, declared that "the souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to what each hath wrought" (an enjoyment or condemnation that will be complete only after the resurrection of the dead); but the souls of some "depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not."

[papertyger]

I have been born again for over 30 years, thanks be to God, and actively remained in Catholicism for 6 years after i was, and i can attest that the “unity of the Spirit”, due to evangelicals shared faith in the gospel of the grace of God, rather than that of institutionalized religion, and it accompanying core beliefs, is far greater in scope and degree - despite it’s faults - than what Rome fosters.

"Unity?" Are you kidding?

[papertyger]

A lot of people seem to ignore this bit when discussing “praying to angles;” whereas, when I read it, I always read-into...

A lot of people ignore this bit because they *don't* "always read-into."

[conservativegramma]

.....I always read-into the angle’s reply a bit of surprise [and perhaps incredulousness at the prospect of being worshiped].....

Yeah, me too. Surprised and shocked even.

I've done the same thing with Rev. 17:4 and following (the harlot riding the scarlet beast passage). In verse 6 John is astounded and amazed.

I've always wondered if John recognized the woman and was shocked at what he saw.

[Anti-Utopian]

Please stop sending me posts. I have no desire to speak with such a person as you.

[OneWingedShark]

> I’ve done the same thing with Rev. 17:4 and following (the harlot riding the scarlet beast passage). In verse 6 John is astounded and amazed.
>
>I’ve always wondered if John recognized the woman and was shocked at what he saw.

It was Mary, the mother of Jesus, who was always a virgin and who is a co-redemptor with Christ, and who both Muslims and Catholics revere. [/sarc style=”Roman Catholic”]

Or, maybe it was Mary Madeline, Jesus’s SECRET lover/wife/mother of His Children. [/sarc style=”Dan Brown”]

Though, in all honesty/seriousness, the “Jesus had a wife” thought isn’t a killer for Christianity: it would merely be a manifestation of the Humanity of Christ. The “what if He had kids?” question is also an interesting thought-experiment: we know that Jesus had no inherent sin-nature because he had no [earthly] father, yet we also know that Jesus was tempted, so perhaps [and this is my own wild-ass speculation] sin-nature comes from the father while the temptation-”weakness/susceptibility” comes from the mother. {In the long run this point is moot because everyone has a mother... ie, the same reason that prompts the thought in the first place.}

[OneWingedShark]

>>A lot of people seem to ignore this bit when discussing “praying to angles;” whereas, when I read it, I always read-into...
>
>A lot of people ignore this bit because they *don’t* “always read-into.”

Is that “reading into” on my part incorrect?
If it is:
- Howso, and by what means will you prove that it is?
- Explain the angel’s reply, especially the “I am thy fellow-servant” reason he gives.

[ForAmerica]

1. It is indicated in the Bible
2. It is not contradictory to the Bible. If you say everything should be in the Bible where does the Bible say that? And if everything should be in the Bible, then why do you use the internet or television to preach?
___________________________________________

1. “Indicated” is not emphatically stated, you sound like a Jehovah’s Witness try to defend that Jesus is Micheal the archangel! God doesn’t leave something like that to indications, look at how far the LDS is off on who God is! Please don’t tell me that you are talking about that verse in Ezekiel?

2. Answer the question and stop trying to divert the question, answer it! Please answer the question, you are not going to run me round in circles, if you have the truth show me! But I think that Jesus cornered the market on the “truth” thing, John 14:6.

Here it is again:

Why is there no Mormon doctrine in the BOM, a book that claims get you closer to God than any other book? For example: eternal progression, God being a man, Jesus and Satan being brothers, There is only one God, God is spirit and Celestial marriage. I could go on but you get my point.

[Leoni]

Tell me one doctrine that you YOPIOS agree on? You don't even agree if Christ is God equal 100% to the Father. Contraceptives? Divorce? Baptism? Ones saved always saved no matter what? Female priestesses? Sacraments?

I addressed this earlier, in fact you even replied to it.

Where did you address it, all I saw was the indulgences thing. Disagreeing with the Catholic Church on indulgences, is not a doctrine. You have not answered my question.You can't answer my question because your religion of YOPIOS can't even agree on a doctrine for the 7 questions of life above.

[ForAmerica]

2. It is not contradictory to the Bible.
__________________________________________

Can you please show me any of these doctrines in the bible that Mormonism teaches that’s found in the bible? I don’t want to see indications, just the facts! Besides, I ask you about the BOM and Mormon doctrine, read the question again!

Why is there no Mormon doctrine in the BOM, a book that claims get you closer to God than any other book? For example: eternal progression, God being a man, Jesus and Satan being brothers, There is only one God, God is spirit and Celestial marriage. I could go on but you get my point.

[Leoni]

Tell me one doctrine that you YOPIOS agree on? You don't even agree if Christ is God equal 100% to the Father. Contraceptives? Divorce? Baptism? Ones saved always saved no matter what? Female priestesses? Sacraments?

I addressed this earlier, in fact you even replied to it.

Where did you address it, all I saw was the indulgences thing. Disagreeing with the Catholic Church on indulgences, is not a doctrine. You have not answered my question.You can't answer my question because your religion of YOPIOS can't even agree on a doctrine for the 7 questions of life above.

[papertyger]

- Howso, and by what means will you prove that it is?

Easy! Are "prayer" and "worship" the same word, or not?

[Leoni]

Leoni posted: A Catholic denies ONE reveled truth and he is a heretic and outside of the Church and condemned to eternal perdition for all eternity, if he dies unrepentant.

conservativegramma commented: The Vatican better excommunicate itself then. There's that pesky CCC #841 claiming equality with Allah. Since I don't see THAT happening.....quite a few heretic Catholics get a pass.

Leoni answered: Not one single heretic "gets a pass". They are all condemned to eternal perdition, if they die unrepentant, whether Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox, ALL heretics are condemned to eternal perdition, along with the rest of the unbelievers.

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

[Cronos]

Mormonism — who’s talking about that 4th generation Protestant grouping?

[Cronos]

1. Indicated in the same way the Trinity is "indicated"
2. That's not diverting the question -- you asked "where is it in the Bible" and I asked "where does it say that everything MUST be in the Bible" -- sola scriptura is false and circular logic.

[Cronos]

Can’t take the truth, eh? You ask for answers and when you get them say “Please stop sending me posts. I have no desire to speak with such a person as you.”