Posted on 05/25/2010 10:14:07 PM PDT by restornu
From the author of Yecheadquarters Creation
Osas, My story so far....
If you ever wondered what doctrine is right between osas and no-osas, then you have come to the right place. Don't think that because I will be supporting no-osas, that I will have a bias opinion. For I have been on both sides. I was born and raised a baptist. Grew up being taught osas. I never felt bad about it until one day my preacher preached on this subject, and what he said made me realize that this cannot be right. His sermon was based on never losing salvation. But he took it to an area of sin I knew was wrong. He made salvation sound like a ticket to sin.
Now this in itself did not convince me it was wrong. But it planted a seed for me to research it, and I have. A lot of my research involved debating this issue on forums with both osas and no-osas believers. At one point, which was the most confusing point of my life, I was about 50/50 on what to believe. After being frustrated for a while, I decided to go to the source and quit relying so much on doctrine, and what people are saying. Why? Man can take you only so far as truth is concerned. Only God can lead you the rest of the way to find absolute truth.
So I prayed and asked for wisdom about this. My journey was long with many events that were placed there to teach me how and why everything worked out the way that it did. For I can only pray and hope that what I have learned, I will be able to convey to an understanding of most who read this. Why is this so important to me? Because in my journey to learn the wisdom about this, I have also learned that this doctrine alone is destroying the faith of every Christian in such a slow death, most can't even detect it. You might be shocked to read that, because you may be one who believes this doctrine. But don't turn away just yet. For if I cannot convince you to read the rest of this section after reading the first page, then I have failed. So just bare with me while I try and make a point on why I believe this is destroying the Christian faith.
Losing the fear of God.....
I have found that the main thing that keeps me in-line is the fear of God. It keeps what I say and do in check. Problem is, what fear can you have when you cannot lose the ultimate goal as to why anyone would become a Christian?
If I cannot lose salvation:
1) Why should I ask forgiveness? 2) Why should I repent? 3) Why should I do any works for the kingdom of God?
For if you cannot lose salvation, then none of the above even applies. Why would God tell us to do something but then turn around and make it sound like none of it has to be done? It's like saying: You can drive the car all you want, but never put gas in it. Why? Because it's not needed. So why fear God enough to do what He has told us if we are not even going to be judged, or punished for not doing it. Does God speak worthless words? Is God's book a worthless book? If osas is believed, then 90% of God's word would have to be omitted to make it work. Because all punishment for sin has to be omitted.
Why obey the commandments?
In the osas belief, I have debated many. I have found that the ones who take it seriously also will tell you that the ten commandments no longer apply. Why? One verse says that we are no longer saved by the law, which is correct. But being saved by the law, and having to obey the law, are two separate subjects. So does the word of God actually make a mention that the ten commandments are no longer in affect as to following them?
jn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my Commandments. (Jesus speaking)
The love doctrines....
There are many doctrines that teach the love of Christ only. Such as some that teach there is no hell. Could osas be a modified version of one of these doctrines? Think about it for a second. Step back from what you believe and just look at the facts....
Osas claims:
Osas says you cannot lose salvation. Salvation with no conditions. The love doctrines claim there is no hell. Salvation with no conditions. So both determine no hell.
So what makes these two different but yet the same? The love doctrine applies to all. Saved or unsaved. It asks the question: Why would a loving God send His children to hell, or the lake of fire? Sounds like a tempting doctrine to look into don't it? But that's how the Devil hooks you and reels you in. Temptation. How? If you could live the life you want, and still end up in heaven. Which life would you prefer? The life that says we have to obey all these laws about sin, or the one where you can do anything? The anything life always appeals to the flesh, and we are flesh...... So for me to even say that I would not want this would be a lie.
The osas doctrine does the same thing. But it only applies to one group. Get saved and be secure. Never lose salvation. Do you see how the temptation is there? Sin all you want, your secure, you can never fall out of His hands etc....
Exalting the flesh over the spirit.
A doctrine that makes something more appealing to the flesh is what? A temptation.
Does The word of God appeal to the flesh, or the spirit? The spirit. Because heaven is the goal of every person that accepts Christ.
The Osas doctrine makes salvation more appealing to the flesh. How? If there is no punishment for sin, then what wins in the end? Is it the temptation to sin, or feeling you need to repent of the sin? Christ did not die on the cross for a covenant that is more appealing to our fleshly temptation, then our Godly need to abstain, and repent of them.
The God complex...
But, osas also has it's own judgement rules. If someone in their group should actually deny Christ, and decide to live a sinners life. How do they answer this? Well, he or she was never truly saved if they did this.... Really? At what point do we gain enough wisdom to make the same judgements as God? To be able to say, with authority, that this person was not truly saved, is to have a God complex. There is only one being able to determine this, and it is not us.
So what does that statement, so often used by osas, reveal? That it is by man's own choice to not lose salvation that we become secure in it. And because we think and believe this, what we believe makes us judge others as if we were God ourselves. Because security of salvation is our choice, so the judgement of that security in others becomes our choice as well. Osas is setting the rules for salvation for themselves, so why not set it for others as well.
You were not truly saved because you strayed, rejected and denied Christ? If we were not able to sin upon being saved, then this would be true. But I see it no where written in God's word where it says that we can never reject Christ. Sounds like a God complex to me. Because if you can make that type of judgement on earth, then who will be on the throne when we get to heaven? This type of judgement of another brings God down to the level of man. And therefore God would not be worthy to set upon the throne if man has the same ability to judge as He does. To be able to judge another as if we were Gods, also brings pride. And where pride is, becoming humble is much harder to do.
Anit spelled backwards is Tina. Hope this helps.
Gosh Resty, looks like you bit off a little more than you planned on.
The point of once saved always saved is: God is more powerful than your sin and unbelief. He saves you, and He keeps you saved. It does NOT mean that you can pray the Jesus prayer and then go live a life of licentiousness.
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Exactly, but the LDS cannot see that. God is all powerful.
They believe they have to EARN their salvation. They bring God down to our level and exalt themselves to the level of God (literaly).
Also, is thread is a pathetic attempt at getting Christians to fight over non essential matters.
Oh VERY nicely said. Amen!
The attitude that the OSAS express for years on the FR pages reveals who you folks are and how lax many are towards the commandments of the Lord so much that many have express why try
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Resty, I will T-Y-P-E S-L-O-W-L-Y so you can understand.
As I posted, why would we insult God (by sinning) when He sacrificed so much to save us? I love God too much for that.
Your statement shows that you have NO spiritual understanding. Once Saved Always Saved DOES NOT MEAN LICENSE. IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE CAN SIN ALL WE WANT.
YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO CONCEPT OF WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. NONE.
Your post implies that just because we believe that God is big enough to save us, and we can’t do it ourselves that we can sin as much as we want to. What is so damn irritating is that the LDS do not understand that liberty in Christ DOES NOT MEAN LICENSE.
But I do know that you have been trained to repeat the lies the Morg teaches.
Come back and play when you are ready to actually learn rather than spout on about things you do not understand.
Honey, not all OSAS are anti’s either.
SLOWLY NOW...
ONE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE OTHER.
Where did you leave your brain again?
Yes.
There are plenty of people who oppose the LDS and its odd teachings and who do NOT believe in OSAS.
John writing to Christians, notice the work “if”:
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the
Father in our defense - Jesus Christ. 1 John 2:1
I don’t believe that we lose our free will after we have received Christ. We still have the free will to give up our salvation (imo). No one can take it but we can forfeit it if that becomes our desire.
I believe in free will as well. God does not save us against our will.
“You do not have to ‘work it off’”
We are saved and our sins are forgiven, not because of what we are but because of what whp Jesus is and what He did.
Amen. I’m saved by God, not by me. I’m reconciled to God by God, through His Covenant, through His Word, His Son. Amen.
A few quick points for now and I'll get back to this later:
First, the doctrine of perseverance of the saints is not held by all Christians. It is not considered to be a doctrine critical to salvation. Whether a person believes an Arminian view opposed to perseverance or a Calvinistic view supporting perseverance, it secondary to the understanding of Christ's atoning blood.
Second, while I'm sure that some misguided people believe that muttering a few magic words and then continuing to live in sin is sufficient for a get-out-of-jail-free card, no mainstream Christian group that I'm aware of teaches such a thing. I have worshipped for years in reformed churches who hold to perseverance of the saints and I don't observe any casualness about following God's law. Just the opposite in fact as sometimes they seem too legalistic, IMO. When a person really understands that salvation through grace by faith alone is a gift, the gratefulness to our Lord is exhibited by a desire to please him. Not based on fear but a desire to please.
Third, Christians universally reject this "license to sin" that you suggest is an outcome of perseverance of the saints. Christians are aware of Paul's condemnation of that "logic" (Romans 6:1-4).
Fourth, Christians can make an imperfect judgment about the spiritual state of person because the Apostle John has given us the insight to do so:
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. (1 John 2:19)
>>> Also, [th]is thread is a pathetic attempt at getting Christians to fight over non essential matters.
I disagree on both counts.
1. I don’t see it as an attempt to cause in-fighting. It is a desperate battle for the hearts and minds of Christians waged by Satan himself. Just as I question my own conviction on the issue, I am sure that non-osas Christians must struggle with their position as well... otherwise, why would they see a need to re-inforce it through persuasion? I find it necessary to address this for the same reason.... it is troubling to me that as a Christian, I still have a desire for sin and therefore frequently question if I was ever saved in the first place... or if I have somehow lost it. In the end, it is my knowledge of God’s word and the core message of dependence upon His Grace that reminds me who is actually in control.
2. The issue is critically essential... not to the salvation of the individual, but rather to the effectiveness of our witness.
If you do not know the first thing there is to know about cars, how can you possibly expect to be successful selling them?
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