Ha!
How about being DECEIVED by a claim of...
"I've learned that PRESBYTERIANism is UNTRUE."
Posted on 05/12/2010 6:53:06 PM PDT by delacoert
Mormonism is essentially a sacramental religion, defined by ordinance and ritual more than doctrine or belief. Any effort to define “Mormon doctrine” is fraught with difficulty and virtually certain of error, although one might venture that the “belief” portion of the temple recommend interview defines doctrine.[1] As Edward Kimball says, “Church history shows that General Authorities frequently declare, clarify, refine, and qualify interpretations of doctrine, but these statements generally constitute only informed opinion.”[2]
On the other hand, there are numerous statements, writings and beliefs that have been put forward as doctrine, or believed as doctrine, at one time or by some people, that we can be fairly confident are not doctrine. We have somewhat more confidence about what is not doctrine than what is.
Only half-jokingly, one might start with the obvious-to-most-adult-Mormons statement that your high school seminary teacher was not a reliable source of doctrine.
So what do we know is not doctrine? Here is a short collection of ideas about “doctrines” we might reject, meant to invite comment and addendum. These are presented in no particular order, although the inspiration for this investigation is chapter 11 of Lengthen Your Stride, which depicts Spencer W. Kimball’s contributions to the discussion of doctrine and even more “not” doctrine.
A. Neither ‘Man, His Origin and Destiny’ by Elder Joseph Fielding Smith, nor ‘Mormon Doctrine’ by Elder Bruce R. McConkie, is an official publication of the Church.[3]
B. Despite numerous requests (and positions stated or implied in the publications noted in A above), the Church has never taken a definitive position on the matter of organic evolution.
C. “We denounce [the Adam-God Theory] and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine.”[4]
D. Other churches are not all wrong. “The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.”[5]
E. References to blood atonement (leaving aside the atonement of Christ), if understood as applying to modern circumstances, ‘do not . . . represent the official stand of the Church.’[6]
F. Elder McConkie’s talk at BYU on “The Seven Deadly Heresies” (including acceptance of organic evolution, a belief that God progresses in knowledge, and the idea that progression from kingdom to kingdom in the afterlife is possible) were Elder McConkie’s personal views and not doctrine.[7]
G. The Joseph Smith Translation is “not the official Bible of the Church.” It is “interesting,” a “fruitful source,” and an “invaluable aid to biblical interpretation and understanding.”[8]
H. Church policy set in 1967 allowing only Melchizedek or Aaronic Priesthood holders to pray in sacrament meetings had no scriptural basis and should be abandoned.[9]
I. The practice of polygamy after 1890 is not in accord with the teachings of the Church.[10]
J. There is no ban on priesthood ordination of Black men after 1978.[11]
K. There is no authoritative or doctrinal explanation why the ordination of Black men was not allowed before 1978.
L. There is not an absolute prohibition on abortion.[12]
M. The Lectures on Faith are not doctrine.[13]
| [1] | In modern form the belief questions are: “(1) Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost? (2) Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer? (3) Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days? (4) Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?” These four questions are, of course, not wholly self-defining and lend themselves to a number of interpretations. |
| [2] | Lengthen Your Stride, The Presidency of Spencer W. Kimball, by Edward Kimball (Deseret Book 2005), at page 95. |
| [3] | Letters and journal entries from President David O. McKay in 1959 and 1960, among other sources. |
| [4] | Spencer W. Kimball at October General Conference in 1976. |
| [5] | Statement by the First Presidency on February 15, 1978. |
| [6] | Bruce R. McConkie, in 1977, responding to a question at the request of the First Presidency. |
| [7] | Lengthen Your Stride at page 101 and clarification in the version published in 1980 BYU Speeches of the Year, changing “we” to “I” and saying “my reasoning causes me to conclude.” |
| [8] | Quotes from the dictionary included in the LDS edition of the Bible. |
| [9] | Priesthood Bulletin 3, no. 3 (July/August 1967). |
| [10] | Official Declaration 1. |
| [11] | Official Declaration 2. |
| [12] | General Handbook of Instructions, which describes certain exceptions where abortion could be the better choice. |
| [13] | Not included in the 1979 and 1981 editions of the standard works. Ed Kimball notes in Lengthen Your Stride that inclusion was proposed at that time but not approved, and that “Several studies had recently concluded that Sidney Rigdon was the principal author of the lectures.” |
“None of you were called of the Lord so all that all of you say is just murmuring!”
Let’s see if you can post the proof and source of that claim.
Otherwise, it sounds like a child throwing a tantrum because they can’t control the message.
****
...are you saying you are a prophet!
were you called of God as was Aaron?
Heb. 5: 4
4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
I weep for those who are of stiffneck!
satan lied to Eve, he lied to Joseph Smith.....you to can be god.
Apparently you believe this by your posts.
My Spirit weeps for you.
Good bye, Resty.
You then digress into childish rants that having nothing to do with the topic or the inquiry.
Again, post the proof and source of your claim in your previous comment...
“None of you were called of the Lord so all that all of you say is just murmuring!”
Otherwise, admit (will never happen) that you are in a perpetual state of ignorance regarding the motives of those you rail against.
This very post is duplicitous and presents an interesting dichotomy.
On one hand you claim empathy and on the other you lash out at those very ones you're claiming empathy for by calling them "stiffneck"(sp).
I doubt the sincerity of your post.
Proverbs 29:1
New American Standard Bible
A man who hardens his neck after much reproof Will suddenly be broken beyond remedy.
King James Bible
He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.
American King James Version
He, that being often reproved hardens his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.
American Standard Version
He that being often reproved hardeneth his neck Shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.
Douay-Rheims Bible
The man that with a stiff neck despiseth him that reproveth him, shall suddenly be destroyed: and health shall not follow him.
Darby Bible Translation
He that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and without remedy.
English Revised Version
He that being often reproved hardeneth his neck shall suddenly be broken, and that without remedy.
Webster's Bible Translation
He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.
World English Bible
He who is often rebuked and stiffens his neck will be destroyed suddenly, with no remedy.desevered.
Ha!
How about being DECEIVED by a claim of...
"I've learned that PRESBYTERIANism is UNTRUE."
Heck!
I'm awaiting BoM II: just like the REST of the MORMONs!
How can you be so ARROGANT when you KNOW this is "Pray for Resty ThuRsday"?
You're working for a boss who is untrained in the key policies of your job -- especially the "why" those policies were put in place to begin with. . . .
I did not say the leaders of the LDS Church are "untrained in the key policies" of their jobs or mine. What I wrote was, "formal training in theology is not required to serve in the LDS Church, even at the highest levels."
That is not a "cop out" but a statement of fact. So far as I can tell from their official biographies, none of the top 15 leaders of the LDS Church claims to hold an academic degree in theology or philosophy.
Can we at least agree on that point? If not, there is no point in going any further.
“I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”
I then said to my mother,
Resty; you really need to post a few more MORMON caucus threads.
THOSE you can CONTROL!
...are you saying you are a prophet!
were you called of God as was Aaron?
Heb. 5: 4
4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
JESUS: Hey Smith!
Remember that boast you made about doing more than even I had done to hold the 'church' together?
JOSEPH SMITH: Where am I?
JESUS: Don't you remember? A few seconds ago you were in that jail.
JOSEPH SMITH: Oh; yeah; but where am I NOW?
JESUS: Don't you remember? Does bang - bang ring a bell?
JOSEPH SMITH: Oh; yeah - that crummy gun I had was about USELESS!
JESUS: I hope you left instructions on how to hold your church together.
JOSEPH SMITH: Dang! I knew there was SOMETHING I was forgetting!
JESUS: Looks like there's a power struggle going on down there.
JOSEPH SMITH: Yeah; there was always SOMEone who wanted the power that I held - especially over the LADIES - wink wink.
JESUS: No need to worry about that now; remember what my friend Matthew wrote down?
JOSEPH SMITH: This? “At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven” (Matthew 22:30)
JESUS: That's it.
JOSEPH SMITH: I thought that was mistranslated.
JESUS: Nah - it was right.
JOSEPH SMITH: Oh well; it was fun while it lasted. My buds will still get it on with the girls.
JESUS: Uh; I'm sorry; in just a few more years; your followers will cavein to the United States government and abandon the 'Eternal Covenant' that you came up with.
JOSEPH SMITH: ME!? YOU are the one that told me to do that!
JESUS: Sorry; but you must have mistranslated what I told you. What part of Do NOT commit ADULTERY did you not understand?
JOSEPH SMITH: mumble....
JESUS: What did you say?
JOSEPH SMITH: Oh, nothing.
JESUS: Well; it was interesting talking to you; but now I must get back to perparing a place for those who believe in Me.
JOSEPH SMITH: Oh, yeah; the Celestial Kingdom.
JESUS: No...
JOSEPH SMITH: The Telestial one?
JESUS: Nope.
JOSEPH SMITH: SUREly not the TERRESTRIAL one!!
JESUS: Nope. Didn't you read that the mind of man had NOT conceived of it? Paul wrote it down in 1 Corinthians 2:9.
JOSEPH SMITH: I thought that was mistranslated.
JESUS: No; it wasn't.
JOSEPH SMITH: You SURE?
JESUS: Yes. Now I must be going: what did you say your name was again?
JOSEPH SMITH: Joseph Smith.
JESUS: Hmmmm. According to my Heavenly Facebook, you didn't sign in as one of my friends - sorry, I never knew you.
JOSEPH SMITH: But....
You should try PRAYING for them; that THEY might know the Great Secret of Presbyterian UNTRUTH!!!!
That is not a "cop out" but a statement of fact.
Oh, we can DEFINITELY agree on THAT point!!
In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.
1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.
14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.
I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain—how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed—the living Prophet—President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.
Ezra Taft Benson
(Address given Tuesday, February 26, 1980 at Brigham Young University)
I seem to recall from the Bible a king who hardened his neck against the admonitions delivered to him. God granted him a few more years when he pleaded for mercy, but he just hardened his neck in the granted extra years, and then one day when bad news arrived, he fell off a fence and broke his hardened neck.
Perhaps she is feeling the ‘heaping coals’ ????
THX1138
I have nothing against catholics. I merely used them as an example because they have the pope and are generally thought of as more religious than the rest of us.
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