Doctrine . . . Not [LDS Atheology]

By Common Consent ^ | January 18, 2007 | Chris Kimball

[delacoert]

Mormonism is essentially a sacramental religion, defined by ordinance and ritual more than doctrine or belief. Any effort to define “Mormon doctrine” is fraught with difficulty and virtually certain of error, although one might venture that the “belief” portion of the temple recommend interview defines doctrine.^[1] As Edward Kimball says, “Church history shows that General Authorities frequently declare, clarify, refine, and qualify interpretations of doctrine, but these statements generally constitute only informed opinion.”^[2]

On the other hand, there are numerous statements, writings and beliefs that have been put forward as doctrine, or believed as doctrine, at one time or by some people, that we can be fairly confident are not doctrine. We have somewhat more confidence about what is not doctrine than what is.

Only half-jokingly, one might start with the obvious-to-most-adult-Mormons statement that your high school seminary teacher was not a reliable source of doctrine.

So what do we know is not doctrine? Here is a short collection of ideas about “doctrines” we might reject, meant to invite comment and addendum. These are presented in no particular order, although the inspiration for this investigation is chapter 11 of Lengthen Your Stride, which depicts Spencer W. Kimball’s contributions to the discussion of doctrine and even more “not” doctrine.

A. Neither ‘Man, His Origin and Destiny’ by Elder Joseph Fielding Smith, nor ‘Mormon Doctrine’ by Elder Bruce R. McConkie, is an official publication of the Church.^[3]

B. Despite numerous requests (and positions stated or implied in the publications noted in A above), the Church has never taken a definitive position on the matter of organic evolution.

C. “We denounce [the Adam-God Theory] and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine.”^[4]

D. Other churches are not all wrong. “The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.”^[5]

E. References to blood atonement (leaving aside the atonement of Christ), if understood as applying to modern circumstances, ‘do not . . . represent the official stand of the Church.’^[6]

F. Elder McConkie’s talk at BYU on “The Seven Deadly Heresies” (including acceptance of organic evolution, a belief that God progresses in knowledge, and the idea that progression from kingdom to kingdom in the afterlife is possible) were Elder McConkie’s personal views and not doctrine.^[7]

G. The Joseph Smith Translation is “not the official Bible of the Church.” It is “interesting,” a “fruitful source,” and an “invaluable aid to biblical interpretation and understanding.”^[8]

H. Church policy set in 1967 allowing only Melchizedek or Aaronic Priesthood holders to pray in sacrament meetings had no scriptural basis and should be abandoned.^[9]

I. The practice of polygamy after 1890 is not in accord with the teachings of the Church.^[10]

J. There is no ban on priesthood ordination of Black men after 1978.^[11]

K. There is no authoritative or doctrinal explanation why the ordination of Black men was not allowed before 1978.

L. There is not an absolute prohibition on abortion.^[12]

M. The Lectures on Faith are not doctrine.^[13]

[1]	In modern form the belief questions are: “(1) Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost? (2) Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer? (3) Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days? (4) Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?” These four questions are, of course, not wholly self-defining and lend themselves to a number of interpretations.
[2]	Lengthen Your Stride, The Presidency of Spencer W. Kimball, by Edward Kimball (Deseret Book 2005), at page 95.
[3]	Letters and journal entries from President David O. McKay in 1959 and 1960, among other sources.
[4]	Spencer W. Kimball at October General Conference in 1976.
[5]	Statement by the First Presidency on February 15, 1978.
[6]	Bruce R. McConkie, in 1977, responding to a question at the request of the First Presidency.
[7]	Lengthen Your Stride at page 101 and clarification in the version published in 1980 BYU Speeches of the Year, changing “we” to “I” and saying “my reasoning causes me to conclude.”
[8]	Quotes from the dictionary included in the LDS edition of the Bible.
[9]	Priesthood Bulletin 3, no. 3 (July/August 1967).
[10]	Official Declaration 1.
[11]	Official Declaration 2.
[12]	General Handbook of Instructions, which describes certain exceptions where abortion could be the better choice.
[13]	Not included in the 1979 and 1981 editions of the standard works. Ed Kimball notes in Lengthen Your Stride that inclusion was proposed at that time but not approved, and that “Several studies had recently concluded that Sidney Rigdon was the principal author of the lectures.”

[Tennessee Nana]

Yes God wants women to do all that for their own husbands and families AT HOME...

:)

[svcw]

Why is what G said a lie?
How is G making money posting on FR?
If what is said is wrong, show us rather than innuendos.

Sandy you say this is a lie: “True Believing Missionaries in the field think their assignments are inspired and the Mission President is a prophet.”

Does that mean these missionaries are acting on their own?

[Tennessee Nana]

SZ it sounds like you would have Heaven on Earth if your wife spent that time and effort on you and the family at home...

I dont understand what drives her...

I was taught different...

EIGHT HOURS ON A SUNDAY EVERY SUNDAY NEGLECTING HER FAMILY ???

Not at a job but playing Legalistic Lolly ??

BTW if she did spend that 9 hours all day on a SUNDAY at a job she would be in deep stuff with the morg wouldnt she ???

For “neglecting her family “

Can you say “heart burn” ???

[ejonesie22]

I see that you are making money off disrespecting me and my faith, though, and you are free to do so. It’s still a free country.

I see that while you have actually no clue about the doctrine and beliefs of the “faith” you have been conned into you have obtained a grasp of the more important aspects of Mormonism such as the unsubstantiated claim against one who is exposing the cult.

If you only would learn as much about the numerous and contradictory beliefs they follow as you have their techniques you might break free.

As far as disrespect, yes Saundra, we all have no respect for the LDS organization, it's leaders and dogma, since they so disrespect the Savior.

[SZonian]

Working on a Sunday is highly discouraged, I haven’t seen anyone get “in trouble” for it. But, they avoid “causing” or “abetting” work on a Sunday. No shopping, no eating out, etc. Unless the “ox is in the mud” so to speak, meaning you just have to have something or do something that is related to the above.

And I’m not even including the many hours a week she works on her calling in the Young women’s group. This includes the weekly meetings she holds with the girls and the weekly meetings she holds with her counselors. Then we can throw in the planning for the girls camp that is coming up in June that she is trying to organize.

This is a big chunk of time because very few of the girls have ever camped or even know what a tent looks like. My wife HATES camping unless it’s in a 5th wheel type camper or cabins with running water, showers, electricity, etc.

Our son and I are going to be teaching her how to pitch a tent, pack her sleeping bag, cook on a camp stove, etc. This should be fun!

[svcw]

Bless you Z.

[T Minus Four]

Wow. Just wow.

[Colofornian]

Today, the Mormon Church enjoys the benefits of the first nineteen indoctrination steps of a destructive cult. If it ever needs to resort to indoctrination step number twenty, it’s certainly not out of reach.

In one sense, ‘Zilla, Mormonism already has done this…hymns to Joseph Smith; Smith getting a lot of attention @ Christmas because of Smith’s birthday – all the while Christmas is played down in Mormonism compared to Christians’ celebration; Smith as the “Consenter” for people entering heaven…what Mormonism has done is just “past tensed” this in Smith…rather than have it pass on from “proph” to “proph”

I commented on about half of these below:

#18: Choose the right! Follow the Prophet! Just Do it! Obedience is the first law of Heaven! Isn’t that what Mormons are taught? Are there any church lessons on real critical thinking?

Not “follow Christ” – but “follow the ‘prophet’” (the “prophet” is substituted for being a disciple of Christ in Mormonism

Ever notice how TBMs don’t publicly question why certain Mormon teachings & Book of Mormon words & Book of Commandments & past Lds ‘proph’ statements have simply been jettisoned minus any explanation?

#17: When have church leaders ever stood up and accepted responsibility for their poor counsel, false prophecies or financial incompetence? If the church isn’t working for people, the church teaches that it’s the members’ fault, never the leadership. Mormons held the common belief that “the church is perfect, but the members aren’t.” In other words, the system is perfect and never to blame. If the Bishop tells you to get divorced and things go sour, it’s not the Bishop’s fault, now is it?

Yes. Just about every Mormon scandal story is not met with a mental linkage to the fruit of Mormonism; the fruit of legalism; and the lack of being truly born from above. Rather, it’s throw the individual under the Mormon bus. Eeee…gasp…we have a real sinner among us!

#16: …the [Mormon] church doesn’t owe the members anything - not even financial disclosures or honest history.

Bingo. A Major dissection of the Mormon’s Church total lack of transparency and historical integrity

#14: One of the great lies of Mormonism is that it is extraordinarily “family friendly.” Most Mormons buy into this myth because the church stresses that image so much. But there is little substance behind it…Look what the church does when one family member is not following the church dogma. Does the church help the family or add stress?

This is a “secret” til you look at Utah anti-depressant usage…male suicide rates…etc.

#13: If you tell your Bishop or Stake President that you don’t believe Joseph Smith was a prophet, then you can kiss your temple recommend goodbye. As an institution - not just a culture - Mormonism punishes doubt and disbelief in its truth and authority claims. Honest, sincere questioning will not earn you any points or blessings in Mormonism - with the Bishop, with the members or with your own family. It’s systemic, not cultural and follows the pattern of Mormonism being a destructive cult right up there with the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Scientology.

Indeed. Endemic. Systemic.

#12: They cannot reveal any lingering doubts about the divinity of the leader lest they lose their own places in the hierarchy to more ardent followers beneath them.

Yes. Mormons readily cite Amos 3:7 – and then interpret it that God doesn’t do a single thing minus telling their “prophet.” Except that Lds “prophets” have given hints they are not that in the know to God’s newly revealed will changes for the Mormon church! Also, during the OT times, God often had prophets who were contemporaries of each other – not just a solo system like Mormonism. (Where’s the “restoration” of that?)

So, on the surface, Mormons will apply Amos 3:7 to Lds “prophets” – except they then begin to wonder why more Mormon “prophets” don’t become “Scripture factories” and produce more Mormon revelations to be canonized.

#11: Because Mormons are reduced to a childlike state, they become obsessed with acceptance and its evil counterparts, judging and gossip. Mormons are obsessed with acceptance and being defined by the group.

Yes. Mormon general authorities have become obsessed with PR-ism. Mormons are always looking as lurkers to see what others are saying about them.

#6: Once new members have made their initial surrender or contribution to the cult, they are asked to do something that contradicts their judgement. What’s important is that the act goes against the new members’ own internal sense of appropriateness. The members must get used to acting against their own values. The big examples of this are found in the temple. Everything from garments, naked touching and secret handshakes go against what most people would consider extraordinary. The full-time missionary experience is also full of required behavior that goes against the many people’s internal sense of appropriateness. One of the hallmarks of all destructive cults is their bizzare rites of passage, which Mormonism has in spades.

Well said.

#1: So what is the ultimate goal for Mormons? Nothing less than Godhood, not salvation. Mormons don’t talk about salvation as the ultimate goal. They talk about “Exaltation” and “having all that God has,” becoming “priests and kings” and having “kingdoms, thrones, principalities, powers, dominions and exaltations.” The top of the Celestial Kingdom is the goal for Mormons. Yet very little is known about it.

Exactly. And what is so strange is there’s absolutely NO MENTION of any of this in the Book of Mormon. Some “restoration.” Not mentioned in the Bible. Not mentioned in the Book of Mormon. What has Mormonism “restored” if the “ancient records” don’t mention this?

[T Minus Four]

Saundra, I don’t see how you can say that’s a lie. You know it’s true. And I predict very shortly we will se several lengthy and indisputably LDS sources that prove it.

‘Zilla, where again do I apply for getting paid for posting LDS doctrine? Can you claim back-pay?

[svcw]

Well, you have said it all.

[T Minus Four]

She must be really running scared. I’m so sorry!

Does it make it much harder on her with you bailed out? Is she made to feel she has to work harder to prove her worthiness?

And what is she being told about what happens to her when she dies, since you won’t be “calling her name”? Does she have to prove herself worthy of being given as a spiritual multiple wife to some dead Mormon Dude?

Sorry, these must be very painful questions. Forgive my bluntness.

I pray for you to be the instrument of her salvation. And to get your very own wife back. She sounds like an amazing woman.

[SZonian]

Actually Saundra, it is true. Mormon missionaries receive a "call" to serve in a certain mission field (geographical area). Aren't "callings" of the lord (read "inspired") in the LdS religion?

I would like to know how anyone is "making money off disrespecting you and your faith"? Is there some special anti-mormonISM posting fund we're not aware of where we get paid by the post or something?

Exposing and rebutting the beliefs of mormonism is not disrespect. If you have some factual material that could back up your assertions, by all means, post that material.

It still is, afterall, a "free country" where the free exchange of ideas is still allowed.

Or does our freedom get to end because you and others like you don't like what's being said?

[SZonian]

Don't worry about being blunt and the questions aren't painful, they need to be answered where people can see. The more light I can shed about the effects of mormonism on the family the better.

It all sounds so benign until one has bought into the doctrine. Then the real work begins.

She's afraid we won't "be together forever" according to LdS doctrine.

She has mentioned that the other women in her ward do tend to ostracize her because their husbands are active leaders in the ward and I'm an apostate. She may be sub-consciously working harder trying to ensure that my apostasy does not affect her exaltation, I'm not sure.

She's working as hard as she can to attain the celestial kingdom. Goes back to the original "fear" if you will, that our family won't be together because I'll be cast into outer darkness.

As you alluded to, according to mormon doctrine, she'll be handed over to a more worthy celestial husband who is on his way to becoming a god and getting busy populating his planet with spirit babies.

Thank you for your prayers, I am trying to be an example to her because she is like many on this board who absolutely refuse to listen to opposing points of view and the facts regarding mormonism.

And yes, I do believe she is an amazing woman, thanks.

[Elsie]

 

They even hold classes at some churches spreading these lies and distortions.

 

 

What an original idea!!

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Professor Robert Millet        teaching at the Mission Prep Club in 2004  http://newsnet.byu.edu/video/18773/  <-- Complete and uneditted

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Timeline...    Subject...

 

0:59            "Anti-Mormons..."

1:16            "ATTACK the faith you have..."

2:02           "We really aren't obligated to answer everyone's questions..."

3:57           "You already know MORE about God and Christ and the plan of salvation than any who would ATTACK you."

[Elsie]

 

They even hold classes at some churches spreading these lies and distortions.

Golly!

Next thing ya know they'll be putting up STATUES that expound upon those LIES right on some of their church property!

[Elsie]

Sandra like to call me a disgusting liar....

I'll bet that toads call out to you from your garden that you are UGLY; too!

[Elsie]

Prove it.

Well; I know for a FACT that PRESBYTERIANism is untrue!!!

--MourningDude(Joseph SAID it; and BY GOD! that's good enough for ME!)

[Elsie]

They call us a “cult” and other lies.

Oh my GOODNESS!

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[Elsie]

 

20. The Cult Leaders Are Perfection
The final stage of cult indoctrination is to accept the leaders as the perfect center of the universe, from which all else derives. The “fully evolved” cult member thus understands all the pain and suffering as resistance to the cult leaders’ divinity. The leader is the single point of entry for God and perfection in the otherwise imperfect universe.

 

 

THIS is ALREADY in place!!

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In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.

1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.
14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.

I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain—how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed—the living Prophet—President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.

Ezra Taft Benson

(Address given Tuesday, February 26, 1980 at Brigham Young University)

 

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[Elsie]

I see that you are making money off disrespecting me and my faith, though, and you are free to do so.

There is a Special Term that describes people who SEE things that others don't.