I just looked in the Dictionary under LOU-ZERRR and saw Joey Smiths goofy mug.
(also listed under "big fake").
WHICH mug???
Posted on 05/10/2010 8:16:49 PM PDT by delacoert
Is the Mormon God the Christian God?
The most important question to be asked when evaluating Robinson’s arguments for recognizing Mormonism as Christian is, “Is the God of Mormonism the God of Christianity?” If the Mormon God is not the Christian God then there can be no thought of understanding Mormonism as Christian.
Robinson readily admits that much of what Mormonism teaches about God cannot be found in the Bible. He insists, however, that this does not mean that the Mormon God is not the biblical God, only that LDS modern revelation has explicated some areas concerning God on which the Bible is silent.28 Concerning God’s corporeality he declares, “I do maintain that the Bible makes no unambiguous statement about the materiality or immateriality of the Father, and that we may therefore think of him either as having a body or as not having a body without ‘contradicting’ the Bible.”29 In other words, the Mormon understanding of God is extra-biblical, but not un-biblical. He also admits freely that Mormonism has a different concept of God than “orthodox” Christianity because “orthodox” Christianity has a doctrine of God that is the product of an influx of Hellenistic thought corrupting and distorting the biblical picture of God.
To those who insist that a corporeal God is not consistent with 1 Timothy 1:17, which states, among other things, that God is invisible, he responds that aoratos does not mean invisible, but simply unseen. The upshot of this understanding of aoratos is that one is left with a god who plays hide and seek.
The fact that LDS teach that God has a body,30 does not prevent the Mormon God from being omnipresent, according to Robinson, because God’s omnipresence is spiritual, not physical, in nature.31 To those who insist on understanding John 4:24 as teaching the incorporeality of God he replies that the text should be translated “God is Spirit,” not “God is a Spirit.” “Latter-day Saints do not dispute this passage at all, unless it is interpreted as limiting God to being merely a spirit.”32 This limited understanding of God as merely spirit comes from Greek philosophy rather than the biblical witness, according to Robinson. In rejecting Greek metaphysics, he writes, “God is spirit, but he is also element; both aspects of existence are included and encompassed within his glorious being. That he is either one does not limit the fact that he is also the other—and infinitely more.”33
Robinson’s argument seems rather disingenuous to those familiar with Mormonism. He is employing the language gap of which he complains in his introductory remarks34 to take advantage of the evangelical Christian belief that there is an ontological difference between spirit and matter. For example, Robinson argues that Mormonism’s God can be omnipresent because his omnipresence is spiritual, not physical. According to Mormon scripture, however, spirit actually is material: “There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter” (Doctrine & Covenants 131:7–8). It is hard to imagine Robinson is unaware that the Book of Mormon teaches that “the spiritual aspect of God’s existence” is coextensive with that of his physical aspect. In a supposed preincarnate appearance, Christ says, “Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh” (Ether 3:16). Mormon scriptures render Robinson’s argument here very “non-official” (and perhaps even unorthodox by LDS standards).
Another serious defect in Robinson’s interpretation of John 4:24 is that in its context this passage involves a discussion of where one ought to worship God, and thus, a question of where one can find God. Jesus responds that the location of worship does not matter. The reason that location is not an issue is because God is not limited to being present in any one location. The reason why God is not limited to one place or another is precisely because God is Spirit, not because God is a material being who is spiritually present (materially present in a finer sort of fashion) in all places.
Yet another argument that Robinson uses to deny that John 4:24 contradicts the LDS concept of God having a body is that since Jesus was God, and he had a body, there is no warrant for thinking that God must necessarily be immaterial. In this argument Robinson: (1) blurs the Trinitarian distinctions between Father, Son, and Spirit; (2) ignores the fact that Christ’s incarnation took place in time/space, and the incarnation body was not essential to his nature as Deity; and (3) ignores the fact that in the incarnation Christ was not omnipresent.
A question related to the corporeality of God is whether or not God was a man prior to becoming God? Robinson affirms that the teaching that God is an exalted man is a linchpin of LDS theology.35 Yet he says this should not be taken to mean that God is not “infinite and eternal.”36 This, however, contradicts what Joseph Smith, Jr. declared in the King Follett funeral sermon, which Robinson allows has “normative” force in LDS theology, concerning the nature of God. Smith states: “We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see.”37 Thus it is apparent that the Mormon founder, through whom all LDS priesthood and prophetic authority is derived, thought that God was not eternally God. That Smith also believed that God was capable of progressing, and thus not infinite, is evident when he puts the following words in the mouth of Jesus:
My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain Kingdom upon Kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself.38
Should one be perplexed as to how Robinson can claim to stand in continuity with Smith and at the same time teach radically different things about God, one must consider the LDS meaning of eternity. Latter-day Saints teach that there is an endless series of eternities. Robinson touches ever so briefly on this point when he writes, “In regard to the possibility that God was once a man in some prior eternity before the beginning of this one, ...” (italics added).39 Consistent with this (re)definition of eternity is his statement: “I firmly believe God did exist as God ‘before all ages’ (from the beginning), but that still does not say anything about before the beginning.40 Certainly my understanding of ‘eternity’ is different from that of the average Evangelical, but it is not without ancient precedent, nor is it internally inconsistent.”41 It is also apparent that Robinson’s understanding of time is not biblical. The God of the Bible created all things (John 1:3). A God who did not create time, but instead is himself subject to time, is not the biblical God.
Not only is the Mormon God not eternally God (in the normal sense of the word), he is not the only God. Although Robinson argues that Mormonism is not polytheistic,42 Joseph Smith disagrees. Again, in the same sermon that Robinson allows has normative force, although it is not technically canonical, Smith declares: “... you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you .... The head God called together the Gods and sat in grand council to bring forth the world. The grand councilors sat at the head in yonder heavens and contemplated the creation of the worlds which were created at that time.”43
There is yet another area of LDS Theology that is troubling to orthodox Christians — in LDS Theology, God has a wife. In Achieving a Celestial Marriage one reads: “Our Heavenly Father and mother live in an exalted state because they achieved a celestial marriage. As we achieve a like marriage we shall become as they are and begin the creation of worlds for our own spirit children.”44 From this quotation one can readily see that God’s becoming a God was dependent not only upon his being married but also upon his having the right kind of marriage.
Robinson struggles valiantly to present the God of Mormonism as infinite, eternal, and one of a kind. Yet when one understands the meaning of his terms, the Mormon God is clearly understood to be finite, temporal, and one of many. The similarities are thus more semantic than actual. This cannot be reconciled with the Christian understanding of God.
An Analysis of LDS Scholar Stephen E. Robinson’s Arguments for Accepting Mormonism as Christian1 By Robert B. Stewart Copyright © 2002 Robert B. StewartMaterial Issues Is the Mormon God the Christian God? The most important question to be asked when evaluating Robinson’s arguments for recognizing Mormonism as Christian is, “Is the God of Mormonism the God of Christianity?” If the Mormon God is not the Christian God then there can be no thought of understanding Mormonism as Christian.
Robinson readily admits that much of what Mormonism teaches about God cannot be found in the Bible. He insists, however, that this does not mean that the Mormon God is not the biblical God, only that LDS modern revelation has explicated some areas concerning God on which the Bible is silent.28 Concerning God’s corporeality he declares, “I do maintain that the Bible makes no unambiguous statement about the materiality or immateriality of the Father, and that we may therefore think of him either as having a body or as not having a body without ‘contradicting’ the Bible.”29 In other words, the Mormon understanding of God is extra-biblical, but not un-biblical. He also admits freely that Mormonism has a different concept of God than “orthodox” Christianity because “orthodox” Christianity has a doctrine of God that is the product of an influx of Hellenistic thought corrupting and distorting the biblical picture of God.
To those who insist that a corporeal God is not consistent with 1 Timothy 1:17, which states, among other things, that God is invisible, he responds that aoratos does not mean invisible, but simply unseen. The upshot of this understanding of aoratos is that one is left with a god who plays hide and seek.
The fact that LDS teach that God has a body,30 does not prevent the Mormon God from being omnipresent, according to Robinson, because God’s omnipresence is spiritual, not physical, in nature.31 To those who insist on understanding John 4:24 as teaching the incorporeality of God he replies that the text should be translated “God is Spirit,” not “God is a Spirit.” “Latter-day Saints do not dispute this passage at all, unless it is interpreted as limiting God to being merely a spirit.”32 This limited understanding of God as merely spirit comes from Greek philosophy rather than the biblical witness, according to Robinson. In rejecting Greek metaphysics, he writes, “God is spirit, but he is also element; both aspects of existence are included and encompassed within his glorious being. That he is either one does not limit the fact that he is also the other—and infinitely more.”33
Robinson’s argument seems rather disingenuous to those familiar with Mormonism. He is employing the language gap of which he complains in his introductory remarks34 to take advantage of the evangelical Christian belief that there is an ontological difference between spirit and matter. For example, Robinson argues that Mormonism’s God can be omnipresent because his omnipresence is spiritual, not physical. According to Mormon scripture, however, spirit actually is material: “There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter” (Doctrine & Covenants 131:7–8). It is hard to imagine Robinson is unaware that the Book of Mormon teaches that “the spiritual aspect of God’s existence” is coextensive with that of his physical aspect. In a supposed preincarnate appearance, Christ says, “Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh” (Ether 3:16). Mormon scriptures render Robinson’s argument here very “non-official” (and perhaps even unorthodox by LDS standards).
Another serious defect in Robinson’s interpretation of John 4:24 is that in its context this passage involves a discussion of where one ought to worship God, and thus, a question of where one can find God. Jesus responds that the location of worship does not matter. The reason that location is not an issue is because God is not limited to being present in any one location. The reason why God is not limited to one place or another is precisely because God is Spirit, not because God is a material being who is spiritually present (materially present in a finer sort of fashion) in all places.
Yet another argument that Robinson uses to deny that John 4:24 contradicts the LDS concept of God having a body is that since Jesus was God, and he had a body, there is no warrant for thinking that God must necessarily be immaterial. In this argument Robinson: (1) blurs the Trinitarian distinctions between Father, Son, and Spirit; (2) ignores the fact that Christ’s incarnation took place in time/space, and the incarnation body was not essential to his nature as Deity; and (3) ignores the fact that in the incarnation Christ was not omnipresent.
A question related to the corporeality of God is whether or not God was a man prior to becoming God? Robinson affirms that the teaching that God is an exalted man is a linchpin of LDS theology.35 Yet he says this should not be taken to mean that God is not “infinite and eternal.”36 This, however, contradicts what Joseph Smith, Jr. declared in the King Follett funeral sermon, which Robinson allows has “normative” force in LDS theology, concerning the nature of God. Smith states: “We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see.”37 Thus it is apparent that the Mormon founder, through whom all LDS priesthood and prophetic authority is derived, thought that God was not eternally God. That Smith also believed that God was capable of progressing, and thus not infinite, is evident when he puts the following words in the mouth of Jesus: My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain Kingdom upon Kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself.38 Should one be perplexed as to how Robinson can claim to stand in continuity with Smith and at the same time teach radically different things about God, one must consider the LDS meaning of eternity. Latter-day Saints teach that there is an endless series of eternities. Robinson touches ever so briefly on this point when he writes, “In regard to the possibility that God was once a man in some prior eternity before the beginning of this one, ...” (italics added).39 Consistent with this (re)definition of eternity is his statement: “I firmly believe God did exist as God ‘before all ages’ (from the beginning), but that still does not say anything about before the beginning.40 Certainly my understanding of ‘eternity’ is different from that of the average Evangelical, but it is not without ancient precedent, nor is it internally inconsistent.”41 It is also apparent that Robinson’s understanding of time is not biblical. The God of the Bible created all things (John 1:3). A God who did not create time, but instead is himself subject to time, is not the biblical God.
Not only is the Mormon God not eternally God (in the normal sense of the word), he is not the only God. Although Robinson argues that Mormonism is not polytheistic,42 Joseph Smith disagrees. Again, in the same sermon that Robinson allows has normative force, although it is not technically canonical, Smith declares: “... you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you .... The head God called together the Gods and sat in grand council to bring forth the world. The grand councilors sat at the head in yonder heavens and contemplated the creation of the worlds which were created at that time.”43
There is yet another area of LDS Theology that is troubling to orthodox Christians — in LDS Theology, God has a wife. In Achieving a Celestial Marriage one reads: “Our Heavenly Father and mother live in an exalted state because they achieved a celestial marriage. As we achieve a like marriage we shall become as they are and begin the creation of worlds for our own spirit children.”44 From this quotation one can readily see that God’s becoming a God was dependent not only upon his being married but also upon his having the right kind of marriage.
Robinson struggles valiantly to present the God of Mormonism as infinite, eternal, and one of a kind. Yet when one understands the meaning of his terms, the Mormon God is clearly understood to be finite, temporal, and one of many. The similarities are thus more semantic than actual. This cannot be reconciled with the Christian understanding of God.
Notes 28 Craig L. Blomberg and Stephen E. Robinson, How Wide the Divide?: A Mormon & an Evangelical in Conversation (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity, 1997), hereafter HWTD?, 86.
29 Ibid, 79.
30 Doctrine and Covenants, 130:22 (hereafter D & C).
31 HWTD? , 88-89. If one is to make sense of LDS statements that God is omnipresent, one must know what LDS mean when they say omnipresent. In A Study of the Articles of Faith, (published by the church), one reads: There is no part of creation, however remote, into which God cannot penetrate; through the medium of the Spirit the Godhead is in direct communication with all things at all times. It has been said, therefore, that God is everywhere present; but this does not mean that the actual person of any one member of the Godhead can be physically present in more than one place at one time. The senses of each of the Trinity are of infinite power; His mind is of unlimited capacity; His powers of transferring Himself from place to place are infinite; plainly, however, His person cannot be in more than one place at any one time. Admitting the personality of God, we are compelled to accept the fact of His materiality; indeed, an ‘immaterial being,’ under which meaningless name some have sought to designate the condition of God, cannot exist, for the very expression is a contradiction in terms. If God possesses a form, that form is of necessity of definite proportions and therefore of limited extension in space. James E. Talmage, A Study of the Articles of Faith: Being a Consideration of the Principal Doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1961), 42-43. The particular copy from which the writer quotes was a gift of the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to Fleming Library at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. The writer assumes that this means the book at least provides a fairly accurate statement as to what LDS theology actually is.
32 AMC?, 79.
33 Ibid., 81.
34 HWTD?., 13-14.
35 HWTD?, 91. He stresses, however, that “more important, more in evidence, more often preached, more often studied, explained and pondered by the Latter-day Saints are the more central doctrines of the gospel of Christ.” Ibid. To his credit, Robinson does not seem uncertain about the place of this concept in Mormon theology, as Gordon Hinckley, the current LDS president, did when asked whether God was once a man in an interview for Time magazine: “I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it ... I understand the philosophical background behind it, but I don’t know a lot about it, and I don’t think others know a lot about it.” David Van Biema, Time 150, no. 5, August 4, 1997: 56.
36 HWTD?, 78.
37 Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith (TPJS), 345. Robinson seems to want to have it both ways. He agrees with what Smith teaches in the King Follett sermon when it serves his purposes (God was once a man) while disagreeing with Smith on other topics (God’s finiteness and non-eternality) taught in the same sermon.
38 Ibid, 347–48.
39 HWTD?, 89.
40 Robinson ignores the fact that the “beginning” of John 1:1 is not the same as the “beginning” of Genesis 1:1. Genesis refers to a moment/place in time/space when God created this world. John, however, contemplates the eternity out of which God, by Christ, created time, space and matter, as is proved by verse 3. God was God, Christ the Word was God, without the existence of space, time and matter—“before,” as it were, Robinson’s “beginning.”
41 Ibid., 90. The precedent he appeals to is first century Judaism: “First -century Jews understood eternity to consist of successive ages or eons—all within the parameters of the beginning and the end.” Ibid. He does not support this statement with a reference. The qualification “all within the beginning and the end” seems to speak of one beginning and one end encapsulating successive eons. Apparently this is not how Robinson understands the statement. This only serves to make the point that the crucial issue is meaning, not terminology. Concerning the internal consistency of Mormonism’s “eternity” see Francis Beckwith and Stephen E. Parrish, The Mormon Concept of God: A Philosophical Analysis (Lewiston, NY: Edwin Mellen, 1991) for a discussion of the logical (in)consistency of the Mormon concept of God’s relationship to time.
42 HWTD?, 132.
43 TPJS, 345, 349. In a separate sermon, preached two months later, Smith declares: “In the very beginning the Bible shows there is a plurality of Gods beyond the power of refutation. . . . The heads of the Gods appointed one God for us; and when you take [that] view of the subject, it sets one free to see all the beauty, holiness and perfection of the Gods.” (brackets in original) Ibid., 372. It is apparent from this quotation that the God of this earth is not even the highest of the Gods; he cannot be referred to as the almighty in an ultimate sense. James White shows that Robinson disagrees on this point with his BYU colleague, Eugene England, Brigham Young University Studies 29 no. 3, 33, cited in James R. White, Is the Mormon My Brother?: Discerning the Differences Between Christianity and Mormonism (Minneapolis: Bethany House, 1997), 182.
44 Achieving a Celestial Marriage, (Salt Lake City: Corporation of the President of The Church Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1976), 1.
Jo0ey Smith was shot in a gun fight he started when he tried to break out of jail...
But anti-Christians will deny that the murderer Joey Smith had guns in jail with him...
and that Joey Smith murdered two men...
(The Christian Jesus and the mormon jesus)
)Yours is mean, small, petty, condemning and puny.
____________________________________________________
But Sandy its not my Jesus that is keeping you out of the mormon after life just because you are a female...
Thats your mormon jesus that is doing that...
You know exactly what will happen to me in the after life.
_________________________________________________
Well all I did was read the Christian Bible...
You can know too if you ever read it...
Those who reject the Jesus of the Christian Bible are condemned to Hell...
You know exactly what will happen to me in the after life.
_________________________________________________
Sandy you need to take that up with the Jesus of the Christian Bible...
You know the One you called “mean, small, petty, condemning and puny.”
He said it not me...
Keeping it real.
Whoops sorry that was the mormon god who said that ...
Sandy (about the Christian Jesus): Yours is mean, small, petty, condemning and puny.
Nana: But Sandy its not my Jesus that is keeping you out of the mormon after life just because you are a female...
Thats your mormon jesus that is doing that...
Sandy: You know exactly what will happen to me in the after life.
________________________________________
I’m just quoting the mormon god and mormon teaching and literarure...
Sandy you need to take that up with the mormon jesus...
That one you have claimed is so wonderful...
the mormon jesus is the one keeping mormon females out of the mormon afterlife...
Not the Christian Jesus...
As for what I know ...
I only know what the REAL Jesus , the Jesus of the Christian Bible says...
Jesus said we must chose to believe in Him now while we are alive...
Once we are dead its too late...
All the dead dunking from now until Jesus comes is not going to save us if we have not believed in the Christian Jesus WHILE WE YET LIVE...
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16
“Joseph Smith and his brother were murdered in cold blood.”
You left out the part where the horndog Smith was hitting
on other men’s wives.
You left out the part where the tin horn dictator Smith was
running roughshod over the justice system.
You left out the part where Smith was responsible for destroying
private property.
Smith got frontier justice for his actions. You reap what
you sow. He got as much justice as he paid out to others.
There is reciprocity in this life.
Joseph Smith and his brother were murdered in cold blood
____________________________________________
Grasshopper, horse thieves were hung in those days...
Wife thieves and outlaws got a quick trial and a bullet...
Well Joey Smith shot his own brother in the back, and 2 other men...
and stole wives and daughteres and money and cattle and horses...
anbd killed a lot of people...
and frontier justice finally caught up to the habitual criminal and outlaw, Joey Smith
Joe Smith was charged with ordering the destruction of the Nauvoo Press. Smith was a false prophet hack and everyone around him knew that. He was shot escaping from Jail. Simple as that. It wasn't "murder" in the slightest.
Joe Smith knew NOTHING about religion. Just a charlatan putz who should've continued selling beer from his home. (at least he had a legal license to sell booze from his house).
I just looked in the Dictionary under LOU-ZERRR and saw Joey Smiths goofy mug. (also listed under "big fake").
Thankfully lots of mormons are waking-up and bailing from the cult.
JESUS: Hey Smith!
Remember that boast you made about doing more than even I had done to hold the 'church' together?
JOSEPH SMITH: Where am I?
JESUS: Don't you remember? A few seconds ago you were in that jail.
JOSEPH SMITH: Oh; yeah; but where am I NOW?
JESUS: Don't you remember? Does bang - bang ring a bell?
JOSEPH SMITH: Oh; yeah - that crummy gun I had was about USELESS!
JESUS: I hope you left instructions on how to hold your church together.
JOSEPH SMITH: Dang! I knew there was SOMETHING I was forgetting!
JESUS: Looks like there's a power struggle going on down there.
JOSEPH SMITH: Yeah; there was always SOMEone who wanted the power that I held - especially over the LADIES - wink wink.
JESUS: No need to worry about that now; remember what my friend Matthew wrote down?
JOSEPH SMITH: This? “At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven” (Matthew 22:30)
JESUS: That's it.
JOSEPH SMITH: I thought that was mistranslated.
JESUS: Nah - it was right.
JOSEPH SMITH: Oh well; it was fun while it lasted. My buds will still get it on with the girls.
JESUS: Uh; I'm sorry; in just a few more years; your followers will cavein to the United States government and abandon the 'Eternal Covenant' that you came up with.
JOSEPH SMITH: ME!? YOU are the one that told me to do that!
JESUS: Sorry; but you must have mistranslated what I told you. What part of Do NOT commit ADULTERY did you not understand?
JOSEPH SMITH: mumble....
JESUS: What did you say?
JOSEPH SMITH: Oh, nothing.
JESUS: Well; it was interesting talking to you; but now I must get back to perparing a place for those who believe in Me.
JOSEPH SMITH: Oh, yeah; the Celestial Kingdom.
JESUS: No...
JOSEPH SMITH: The Telestial one?
JESUS: Nope.
JOSEPH SMITH: SUREly not the TERRESTRIAL one!!
JESUS: Nope. Didn't you read that the mind of man had NOT conceived of it? Paul wrote it down in 1 Corinthians 2:9.
JOSEPH SMITH: I thought that was mistranslated.
JESUS: No; it wasn't.
JOSEPH SMITH: You SURE?
JESUS: Yes. Now I must be going: what did you say your name was again?
JOSEPH SMITH: Joseph Smith.
JESUS: Hmmmm. According to my Heavenly Facebook, you didn't sign in as one of my friends - sorry, I never knew you.
JOSEPH SMITH: But....
“Like a lamb led to slaughter...”
Riiiiight...
75
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