Posted on 04/08/2010 8:15:01 PM PDT by truthfinder9
I also see that you make the claim that sin was in the world prior to Adam without ever giving any scriptural support for this idea. You know for a fact when satan rebelled and that it was before Adam...without scriptural support this sounds more like an “emotional occurrence” to me.
I would suggest that you read Ezekiel 28 it appears that satan was still an angel in the garden of Eden...
Ezekiel 28:13-15 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and diamonds, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Genesis 1:31 And God saw EVERY THING that he had made, and, behold, it was VERY GOOD. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
I would understand these scriptures as telling me that God created every thing (including the angels) and as of day six every thing was very good...do you think that God would think of sin as very good? Not buying that one.
Even the scriptures that you do mention support the idea of death from Adam's sin.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned”
1 Corinthians 15:21-22 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
These two scriptures are either correct or are a lie...I will hold to them as being the truth and thus being correct so yes “by one man sin entered into the world”.
It would appear to me that scripture is being twisted to try and fit the billions of years into it, thus putting man's ideas over God's word. I will put my faith and trust in God and His word instead of man...if this is your emotional “straw man” so be it.
Sorry but read Job...a hippo or elephant do not fit the descriptions. As for a literal animal that breaths fire...the only currently living animal that I am aware of that comes close would be the bombardier beetle that actually shoots fire from it's hind end through a chemical reaction to protect itself. If God can create a beetle with this ability then I can believe He could do it on a larger scale.
I do not see how in any of this I am “dumbing down” God's word. God said these things for a reason. I will take Him at His word and let man try to prove Him wrong, which they never will.
It would have to depend on how far back you go. According to the current evidence, “man” was pretty intelligent even as far back as 1million years ago. The med flood happened 5 million years ago, at a point when the available evidence doesn’t even show tool use.
I was thinking that back in the day when we looked at some of the Greek that there was a distinction between physical death and spiritual death. ( my lexicons are boxed up but I plan to exhume them someday).
Not all creatures have eternal spirits, and those creatures are not necessarily then capable of free will choosing between good and evil, and hence incapable of sinning and do not suffer a spiritual death when they expire ( which I would feebly submit might be an eternal, conscious separation from God, Gehenna, lake of fire etc.). My recollection is that the wages of sin is the spiritual form of death in the Greek text.
That might change the picture you describe, but I certainly agree there is quite a bit of mystery with respect to giants, “sons of God”, behemoth and so on. I don’t think this is all that germane to our salvation but it does lead to an interesting study as to whether or not Jesus died spiritually or physically in payment for our sins.
I appreciate your thoughts and response.
This would also raise the issue that if the death in those verses are speaking of spiritual death only then why did Jesus have to die the very physical death on the cross when He could have just gone through spiritual death? This again would call into question the character of God.
The whole of scripture points to physical death being part of the process set into motion at the fall.
Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
The first record in scripture that anything had died (needed the skins)
Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Hebrews 9:27-28 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
“Maybe the Epic of Gilgamesh was a modified retelling of the actual account of the flood.”
Take out the “maybe” and the sentence reads just fine ... and then has the virtue of being true as well.
Genesis was written by Moses, inspired by God. Obviously, Moses was not around when much of the history recorded in Genesis took place. For example, Moses wrote about Adam and Eve, and the flood, but those events occurred before Moses was born.
Thus, it is entirely possible that the Gilgamesh Epic described the same flood as that later portrayed in Genesis. When Moses wrote of the flood, it was already history to him. What is “new” in the Genesis account is what God revealed about His own hand in the matter, whereas the Gilgamesh account is that culture’s man-made suppositions based on their pagan world-view.
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I think you're 100% correct.
Elsie, have you been busy without telling me? This sounds like something you’d espouse. Or try to ‘splain!
My 9 years of research on the first 11 chapters of Genesis leads me to believe that the Flood account was written by Noah and Shem, and handed down in the form of cunieform tablets...eventually to Moses.
Taking the Bible, as I do, the Flood was probably in 2256 BC...a little more recent than what some have proposed.
I don’t think visual acuity has anything to do with it. It is simply sloth. Opprobriumiscuity. It really is amazing how historically magical seven is though. Seven brides for seven brothers. The seven dwarves. The magnificent seven...
Opprobriumiscuity.Wow. That's my pick for "coinage of the week".
Catholicism allows for either perspective, you can be fundamentalist or you can agree with the theory of evolution or any number of views between the two. It is not written anywhere that you must be one or the other.
I’ll have to go along with what was said in #68.
Here is the problem: Where did the extra water come from? There is only so much water on earth, not enough to cover the entire land mass of the world. If extra water(enough to flood the world)came from some external source where did it go after the flood? It couldn't simply evaporate because it would then rain back to earth again and the waters would never recede as there would be no place for it to drain off to.
Therefore this was not a world wide flood, it had to be localized to some specific area. Granted, God might be able to produce enough water to flood the world and then siphon it off somewhere into space but if he has that kind of power(and he would have) why bother with water? Why not just kill the sinners outright as he did with Sodom and Gomorrah? Why go through the whole messy business of a flood?
I don't think he chose to drown the world with non-existent water, I think a local flood caused such a catastrophe that it was written up as a world wide calamity(which it would certainly seem like considering the state of communications at the time).
one name I agree with you
Me too!
:o])
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