Restoration must be at the forefront of interfaith dialogue [Lds - Open]

Mormon Times ^ | March 26, 2010 | NIck Newman

[Colofornian]

PROVO, Utah -- Mormons should push to openly talk about their differences in interfaith dialogue rather than overlooking them, a British religious scholar told listeners at BYU Studies' 50th Anniversary Symposium on March 12.

"The important point is that, however other faiths are engaged with or viewed, it must be against the background of the First Vision," James Holt said. "Anything we do has to be informed by the Sacred Grove and the events that took place there. It can't be simply dismissed, because the Lord said it."

Holt, senior lecturer and subject leader in religious education at the University of Chester in England, gave a presentation called "The Dichotomy of Latter-day Saint Interfaith Commentary: A Way Forward" at the Gordon B. Hinckley Alumni Center at BYU.

Holt presented how Mormons straddle the line between retrenchment and assimilation, saying that this straddling started with the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith.

In the Sacred Grove, Mormons believe Joseph Smith was told that the sects of the day were false. In the first section of the Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord tells members that they are part of "the only true and living Church".

"Latter-day Saints had a desire to separate themselves from all other forms of religions -- they were different from any other organization of religion, not the least because the Lord had told them that they belonged to "the only true and living Church" (D&C 1:30)," Holt said. "Latter-day Saints defined themselves not only by the unique beliefs they held, but also by recognizing the beliefs they did not."

Holt, who also serves in the Manchester England Stake Presidency, examined how Mormons, through scripture, came to a negative view of other faiths. By referring to Doctrine and Covenants 76:99-101, Matthew 7:21 and 3 Nephi 27: 7-11, he showed that churches not based on the restored gospel will be found in the telestial kingdom.

"It seems as though the negative view of other faiths reaches its zenith in the description of these inheritors of the telestial kingdom. The reward available to such people is on a comparable level to murderers and whoremongers (though maybe on a higher level)," he added. "Through the Atonement of Christ, the most these faiths can hope for is to the lowest degree of glory. No matter how well-meaning it is, no matter how much truth it contains, it still falls short of the knowledge and ordinances of Christ that are necessary for exaltation, and can only be found in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

"As a commentary on the religious beliefs of millions of people worldwide and throughout the ages, this is perhaps as condemnatory as is possible."

And with that, Holt said, lies the dichotomy: While Mormons do have some sort of exclusivity when it comes to correctness of belief, they're also supposed to recognize the value of other churches. In fact, Mormon revelation says that adherents of other faiths will be found in different kingdoms in the afterlife, not because of their beliefs, but because of the honorableness of their lives. Mormons believe through the Prophet Joseph Smith that people of other faiths can attain different kingdoms of glory.

"From an LDS perspective, this means recognizing that there is error and falsity in other religions that are in direct contradiction to the restored gospel. As much as Muslims share common values with Latter-day Saints, they still deny the divinity of Christ," Holt said. "Similarly, we share views about God with other Christians, but we do not believe he is Triune. In interfaith dialogue, these areas would need to be engaged with rather than passed over; in this way, a Latter-day Saint could be seen to be standing 'as a witness of God at all times and in all things' (Mosiah 18:9).

That doesn't mean belittling or arguing with other faiths or their followers, however, Holt pointed out.

"It also means recognizing that there is truth in other faiths; that those following these faiths are not 'others', but fellow children of God at a different point in their eternal progression," he added. "These faiths are providing their adherents with the opportunity to respond to the light of Christ. "

Holt also said that some Mormons fear interfaith dialogue because they think they will either be tainted by false ideas or be completely offensive when discussing differences, and that it's easier to be like everyone else.

"This is not the purpose of interfaith dialogue from an LDS perspective; we don't seek ecumenism, we seek interfaith relationships and dialogue, but we do not seek ecumenism, because the purpose of it is to bring the churches together," Holt said. "That's not an LDS teaching, and we must be honest about it."

And while Mormons should honestly see the error in other religions, they would do well to seek light and truth from wherever it comes. Similar to Moses' giving of the lesser law to the children of Israel, Holt said that other religions are "helpful mechanisms" to help followers receive their eternal reward.

"God, for Latter-day Saints, accepts a person living a lesser law in order for a person to have a greater chance of a more hopeful judgment -- perhaps even exaltation after the reception of ordinances," Holt said. "Could this mean, that if religions and their laws are inspired by the light of Christ, then those belief structures are an evidence of a loving God who wishes to give all the opportunity to receive exaltation?"

Holt reiterated that having meaningful, intelligent conversations with members of other faiths is one of the purposes of the church, if done honestly.

"For Latter-day Saints, Jesus Christ is 'the way, the truth, and the life' (John 14: 6) and the Church is 'the only true and living Church upon the face of the whole earth" (D&C 1:30),' Holt said. "These truths and the validity of the Restoration are the basis of any starting point for interfaith dialogue. These can be seen to be arrogant claims to make, however, for Latter-day Saints to begin from another position would base the dialogue on dishonesty.

"We have to sit down, and declare that Jesus is the Christ, and Joseph is a Prophet of God. A person is truly living the gospel as they help others live their faith without fear of condemnation."

[Colofornian]

Compared to what you tend to hear from the average Mormon, this Lds presentation is a wee bit more "bare-souled." While it doesn't mean this article is disagreement-free, here's a Mormon conceding what Lds believe people of other faiths to be -- which is not too complimentary, to say the least. The "refreshing concession" first:

From the column: Holt...gave a presentation called "The Dichotomy of Latter-day Saint Interfaith Commentary: A Way Forward"...Holt presented how Mormons straddle the line between retrenchment and assimilation, saying that this straddling started with the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. In the Sacred Grove, Mormons believe Joseph Smith was told that the sects of the day were false. In the first section of the Doctrine and Covenants...they are part of "the only true and living Church". "Latter-day Saints had a desire to separate themselves from all other forms of religions -- they were different from any other organization of religion...they belonged to "the only true and living Church" (D&C 1:30)...the [Lds] Church is 'the only true and living Church upon the face of the whole earth" (D&C 1:30),' Holt said "...the Restoration... [forms] the basis of any starting point for interfaith dialogue. These can be seen to be arrogant claims to make, however, for Latter-day Saints to begin from another position would base the dialogue on dishonesty. .

Too many Mormons do what Holt was talking about here: They try to "begin from another position" in dialogues w/people of other faiths (i.e. Christians) -- which he says is a "dishonest" one. But Mormons tend to shy away from that starting point. Why? Well, it doesn't "help" the Mormon's oft perceived "victim role" re: "Woe is me, I'm the 'persecuted and oppressed' one..."

In reality, when Lds open their "trenchcoats" to show you what's underneath, as this speaker has, we all see their "naked beliefs" of labeling ALL Christians as...
..."false" believers;
...& that ONLY the Mormons constitute the supposed "true & living" church -- implying the rest of us are false & dead.

This is where true Christians of the historic faith need to distinguish between...
...the civil tone (I love conversing with Mormons, because usually their tone is "easy" on the ears)...
...vs. the content of what is said, especially how loud their tithing $ speaks worldwide -- slandering the historic Christian church in the process!!

Hence, the Lds speaker labels this a true "dichotomy." Mormons are trained to be "nice." They will often say to your face, or online, that they NEVER "tear down, belittle, or bash" other beliefs. And that actually might be true of many of them via their vocal chords and keyboards...
...but NOT via their wallets and bank accounts!!! A cursory examination of their tithing $ reveals that it goes to:
Official church mag articles & curricula;
Web site content;
Brochures & pamphlets;
Books;
Translations of their "scriptures";
multi-media productions;
...which have ALL labeled Catholics, Protestants, & Orthodox as:
..."the church of Satan" per the Book of Mormon;
...100% creedally abominable -- with nary a single God-honoring creed per the Pearl of Great Price;
...a false & dead church per Doctrine & Covenants;
...a 100% "apostate" church per Mormon Doctrine;
...lacking all authority per Lds general authority writings;
..."corrupt" professors -- ALL of us -- per the Pearl of Great Price;
...not worthy of joining -- NONE of us -- per the Pearl of Great Price; etc.

From the column: "The important point is that, however other faiths are engaged with or viewed, it must be against the background of the First Vision," James Holt said. "Anything we do has to be informed by the Sacred Grove and the events that took place there..."

Translation for us non Mormons: Lds are trained from the get-go, especially their Lds missionaries, to always link the so-called "universal apostasy" with what they call "the restoration." [Note: Everybody except Jesus' apostle, John, who supposedly has NEVER died; along with some "Nephite" disciples...who supposedly also NEVER died...anybody get any text messages from any of these guys???]

Couple these comments w/ the very headline of this column, the "bottom line" that is "Mormon ground zero" for any interfaith discussion MUST be to evaluate every Christian denomination through their filter of apostasy -- because to the Mormon, the "restoration" is always a hand-in-glove concept with total apostasy...hence, we're all so-called "apostates."

How did the Mormon "restoration" come to be so closely linked with so-called complete Christian apostasy?
(1) No "restoration" can occur minus the complete loss of the original church. (The Mormon founder needed to take a scorched-earth approach to Christians, otherwise he -- and his restoration -- was 100% superflous. Either he was unnecessary, or the Christian church was...so Smith chose the Christian church to be! He essentially tossed all Christians into one gigantic graveyard, and tried to erect a new religion on top of it.)
(2) Let's face it, if Smith's "diagnosis" of Christians was wrong, that all did NOT commit apostasy, then no need existed for him or his restoration-from-scratch. [Even all the Lds Bible verses they come up with on the apostasy (a) proves it wasn't to be "universal"; and (b) actually contradicts it...verses like Eph. 3:21 and 1 Tim. 4:1]

[Colofornian]

From the column: Holt...examined how Mormons...came to a negative view of other faiths. By referring to Doctrine and Covenants 76:99-101, Matthew 7:21 and 3 Nephi 27: 7-11, he showed that churches not based on the restored gospel will be found in the telestial kingdom.

Boy, that sounds wonderful, doesn't it? You'll often hear Mormons try to toss Christians a few "bones" by saying: "See, we don't think you Christians are going to hell. We don't preach hellfire. You're going to be 'saved,' too. You''ll be part of God's kingdom and His glory." But, again, to partially commend the forthrightness of this speaker, he immediately added to the above comment: "The reward available to such people is on a comparable level to murderers and whoremongers (though maybe on a higher level)," he added. "Through the Atonement of Christ, the most these faiths can hope for is to the lowest degree of glory. No matter how well-meaning it is, no matter how much truth it contains, it still falls short of the knowledge and ordinances of Christ....As a commentary on the religious beliefs of millions of people worldwide and throughout the ages, this is perhaps as condemnatory as is possible"

So, you see? When a Mormon says "you'll be saved, too" -- he's merely saying you're on roughly the same level as "murderers and whoremongers!" Because whoremongers can also "attain" the lowest degree of glory!!! That's why this speaker says, "As a commentary on the religious beliefs of millions of people worldwide and throughout the ages, this is perhaps as condemnatory as is possible." And, of course, the other shoe Mormons tend not to drop here, is that when they tell you you'll be "saved" they just don't seem to get around very often to mentioning, "Oh, what we meaned by 'saved' is that you'll NEVER live in the presence of God in 'glory.'"

What is a so-called "glory" minus God's presence??? (Utter blasphemy!!!)

And that's also why Mormonese always needs a "Paul Harvey 'rest-of-the-story' translator." We tend to only receive partially-honest up-front concessions from most Mormons...and it goes back to the "dichotomy" this speaker referenced. They...
...don't want to come across as "arrogant" or intolerant;
...think they know what it's like to have all their beliefs "smothered" by opposition...
...but the reality is, Joseph Smith has already smothered every Christian creed!
He labeled every single one to be putrid is the eyes of his 'god.'
He already arrogantly dismissed ALL Christian creeds, ALL Christian professors, ALL Christian sects and churches, ALL authority a Christian claims to be acting upon, etc.
So, in fact, you can't get anymore intolerant than Smith and those who are his faithful followers...as they try to hold it over your head, that unless you join Lds, Inc...and give them 10%...you'll never live eternally with God the Father...talk about a modern-day "indulgence" similar to what the Catholics were selling that Martin Luther revolted over!!!!

[SkyDancer]

"We have to sit down, and declare that Jesus is the Christ, and Joseph is a Prophet of God. A person is truly living the gospel as they help others live their faith without fear of condemnation."

And I keep asking those of the LDS faith to define exactly who Jesus is according to their faith. Contrary to what they say, their Jesus is not the same Jesus of the Bible as stated by Mr. Holt.

[Colofornian]

From the column: Holt also said that some Mormons fear interfaith dialogue..."This is not the purpose of interfaith dialogue from an LDS perspective; we don't seek ecumenism, we seek interfaith relationships and dialogue, but we do not seek ecumenism, because the purpose of it is to bring the churches together," Holt said. "That's not an LDS teaching, and we must be honest about it."...Holt reiterated that having meaningful, intelligent conversations with members of other faiths is one of the purposes of the church, if done honestly."

(That's funny...then why were "ecumenical" threads temporarily all the rage of some Lds Freepers?)

From the column: Similar to Moses' giving of the lesser law to the children of Israel, Holt said that other religions are "helpful mechanisms" to help followers receive their eternal reward.

Yes, however God "rewards" His people, it will be done in an "eternal" context. But we're not to mix "obligations" (what a worker, servant or steward does) with an intimate relationship (what a bride or adopted child receives). An adopted child doesn't "work" to be received as a child; he or she is a child, and then is to BE responsible from there out. The adoption is a gift, not a work-reward!!! A true bride isn't to "work" for love; no, she is loved, and out of love, she may serve her spouse.

The apostle Paul made this distinction twice in Romans: Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. (Romans 4:4) For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

Our works are wages, and we are rewarded or compensated by God for them. But that will come after we enter heaven; works are not in & of itself a basis for entering heaven!!! That, Paul says, is a pure GIFT!!! If you try to work your way in or up, that's a "wage." And Paul says our "wage" -- since we have to include our sin in that equation -- is death!!! It's our eternal death as well (what the Bible calls the "second death") if we don't let Jesus' death be that "paid-in-full" wage on our behalf (substitute).

[greyfoxx39]

More of the same talking out of both sides of the mouth from mormons...."We're Christians, just like you, you're "persecuting" us when you say we believe in a "different" god, "You Evangelicals are all bigots" because you say we aren't Christians"...

But a mormon makes these remarks, "Holt, who also serves in the Manchester England Stake Presidency, examined how Mormons, through scripture, came to a negative view of other faiths. By referring to Doctrine and Covenants 76:99-101, Matthew 7:21 and 3 Nephi 27: 7-11, he showed that churches not based on the restored gospel will be found in the telestial kingdom. "The Telestial Kingdom in Latter-day Saint understanding is the lowest of the three degrees of glory to be inhabited by God's children.
It embraces those who on earth willfully reject the gospel of Jesus Christ, and commit serious sins such as murder, adultery, lying, and loving to make a lie (but yet do not commit the unpardonable sin), and who do not repent in mortality.

Although the term "telestial" does not occur in biblical accounts, latter-day revelation cites telestial as the kingdom of glory typified by the lesser light we perceive from the stars (D&C 76:98). The Celestial Kingdom and Terrestrial Kingdom are typified by the light we perceive from the sun and moon, respectively.

Telestial Kingdom

-SNIP-

"Through the Atonement of Christ, the most these faiths can hope for is to the lowest degree of glory. No matter how well-meaning it is, no matter how much truth it contains, it still falls short of the knowledge and ordinances of Christ that are necessary for exaltation, and can only be found in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

So, Christians, let's welcome as fellow Christians the ones who claim that the Atonement of Jesus Christ was not ENOUGH to make us equal to the "one true church."

And FReepers wonder why we spend time bring to light the beliefs of mormonism.

[svcw]

"We have to sit down, and declare that Jesus is the Christ, and Joseph is a Prophet of God."

With this statement lds really need to wonder why Christians are offend by them? Their world view is offensive.

[greyfoxx39]

[svcw]

Well, partnering with muslims is the same.

[svcw]

Mormons should push to openly talk about their differences in interfaith dialogue rather than overlooking them

How is this possible when since the beginning of lds, you (lds) have said we (everyone else) are pretty much "pond scum" unless we join the lds church.

[reaganaut]

Morg placemarker

[Colofornian]

More of the same talking out of both sides of the mouth from mormons...So, Christians, let's welcome as fellow Christians the ones who claim that the Atonement of Jesus Christ was not ENOUGH to make us equal to the "one true church." And FReepers wonder why we spend time bring to light the beliefs of mormonism.

Excellent presentation of Mormon doubletalk: "We're not together part of the one true church; but we're together part of the one true Kingdom."

The latter statement is supposed to provide spiritual "solace" for the Christian...yet, they "assign" the Christian to the same place they assign the "whoremonger" says this speaker!!!

Mormons, since you slice away the KING from the KINGdom by claiming we as Christians won't live eternally with Him, you can keep your [adjective inserted here] "kingdom" (small "k")!!!!

Without the King Present, there is no "Kingdom"!!! (And I wouldn't want it any other way!!!)

[Colofornian]

How is this possible when since the beginning of lds, you (lds) have said we (everyone else) are pretty much "pond scum" unless we join the lds church.

What do you mean, svcw? (Lds say we're assigned the same "planetory" award as the whoremonger...doesn't that make you want to "extend the dialogue"???)

[svcw]

Yes, color I feel the love.

[Tennessee Nana]

“The important point is that, however other faiths are engaged with or viewed, it must be against the background of the First Vision,” James Holt said. “Anything we do has to be informed by the Sacred Grove and the events that took place there.
___________________________________________

OK so that’s what mormons do in their religion...

But Christians focus on the Blood of Jesus that was shed to save us and the Cross and the events that took place there...

[Tennessee Nana]

AWWWWWWWWWWWW

Darlin Kitteh...

:)

[Tennessee Nana]

And I keep asking those of the LDS faith to define exactly who Jesus is according to their faith. Contrary to what they say, their Jesus is not the same Jesus of the Bible as stated by Mr. Holt.
__________________________________________

The mormons agree with you...

They say that their mormon jesus is not the Christian Jesus, too...

Not the same Jesus
“There are those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints do not believe in the traditional Christ.

No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak.”

– LDS President Gordon B. Hinckley (LDS Church News, June 20, 1998)

“It is true that many of the Christian churches worship a different Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons.” – LDS publication, Ensign Magazine, May 1977, p. 26

[Tennessee Nana]

“We have to sit down, and declare that Jesus is the Christ, and Joseph is a Prophet of God.”
____________________________________________

There is “no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God”
- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190

“You call us fools; but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a god...”
- Herber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses 5:88

“If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]”
- (as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142)

“He (Joseph Smith) is the man through whom God has spoken... yet I would not like to call him a savior, though in a certain capacity he was a god to us, and is to the nations of the earth, and will continue to be.”
- Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:321

“It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men.... If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,”
- Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670

“I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, “Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;” if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again.”
- Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155

[svcw]

I am sorry Nana but this statement makes me want to vomit. It is pure and unadulterated blasphemy.

“He (Joseph Smith) is the man through whom God has spoken... yet I would not like to call him a savior, though in a certain capacity he was a god to us, and is to the nations of the earth, and will continue to be.” - Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:321

[SkyDancer]

I would like to see a Mormon spell out here exactly the Jesus they worship rather than dance around the point ....

[svcw]

This next statement alone invalidates everything any lds will tell you about them being a Christian in the Biblical sense. In any words lds are telling you(us) that Joe Smith is equal to Jesus Christ. It is blasphemy,

“I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. .” - Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155