Posted on 03/25/2010 12:58:38 PM PDT by TaraP
The world will have an extraordinary opportunity to look upon an undistorted, never-before-seen, moving 3-D portrait of a man who many think is the crucified Jesus Christ.
In just one week, graphic experts will bring to life an imprint on the holy relic known as the Shroud of Turin, believed by millions to be the burial shroud of Christ.
The Shroud of Turin bears the full-body, back-and-front image of a crucified man that is said to closely resemble the New Testament description of the passion and death of Christ. The 14-foot cloth long has posed mysteries because of its age and its negative image of a bloodstained and battered man who had been crucified. Believers claim it to be the miraculous image of Jesus, formed as he rose from the dead.
The History Channel will air "The Real Face of Jesus?," a special two-hour event that premieres March 30 at 9 p.m. EST. It aims to bring the world as close as it has ever come to seeing what Jesus may have actually looked like.
(Excerpt) Read more at wnd.com ...
You make a point mentioning A-bombs calculated with slide rules; yet you have previously called the shroud the most studied object in the world. Wouldn’t that actually be the atom? Spindled, folded , stapled, mutilated, smashed, split, combined, etc., whilst the old men who hold the shroud let some old guys do a few delicate tests every few decades? You declare other’s textillary originination information as speculation, and offer down your own high-handed declarations. I quote Jesus Christ himself, who apparently wasn’t all caught up in the mysticism of signs, proofs and relics.
Anyone who knows the Catholic Church’s dishonest, corrupt, avaricious history, down thru the wicked and adulterous generations and right up to yesterday’s further charges of Popely coverups of priestly deaf boy school rapes, and still tries to begin to attempt to believe in Church-maintained-and-documented True Cross splinters and True Cross nails and the True Facecloth in a cathedral in Spain (is it all negatived-up like the shroud?) and the True Shroud might wanta step back a bit and reconsider a few things, eh? The Turin shroud is interesting, and might be special, and it’s origin is, so far, unknown. No one can prove that it wasn’t ever wrapped over Jesus body, but no one person can prove that he’s never been to Spain, or any other declared negative, either. The 14th century cloth from Turin might be Jesus’s burial wrap, and Stalin may have confessed and converted on his deathbed, but we both know it isn’t, and we both know he didn’t.
He is one and the same... I have talked with Barrie several times at Shroud conferences.... and thanks for the compliment.
I said the Shroud is the most studied single item in the world... I stand by that... and I did not call the textillary origination information speculation, I pointed out the claim that it proved the Shroud was not produced or from the Jerusalem area is TWADDLE, which it is, with no foundation... and that it was twaddle pushed only for the singular purpose of falsifying only one other artifact in the world. That makes it BAD AGENDA SCIENCE.
And once again you spout your ignorance of the facts about the objects you denigrate. Perhaps, before you criticize, it might be helpful for you to do so from SOME SEMBLANCE of knowledge????? No one has ever suggested Jesus ever went to Spain... we know how the Sudarium of Oviedo got to Spain in the sixth Century. You haven't the foggiest clue about it and still you attack without knowledge of what you attack... merely because it has some connection to the Catholic Church. I am not Catholic... I merely follow the science and the scholarship.
Anyone who knows the Catholic Church’s dishonest, corrupt, avaricious history, down thru the wicked and adulterous generations and right up to yesterday’s further charges of Popely coverups of priestly deaf boy school rapes, and still tries to begin to attempt to believe in Church-maintained-and-documented True Cross splinters and True Cross nails and the True Facecloth in a cathedral in Spain (is it all negatived-up like the shroud?) and the True Shroud might wanta step back a bit and reconsider a few things, eh?
Flowerplough, your agenda is blatant... and it is UGLY.
That would be me, pal. The thread discussed the Shroud and Knights Templar.
And I'm delighted to see you've lost none of your insulting vituperation. You are pure genius at work.
But already you've forgotten the correct answer on Christ's DNA, didn't you? ;-)
Wpin from #192: "Hmmm, and you sound like a fool."
One can only hope our religion monitor will eventually wake up from his/her snooze, and gavel you to better behavior.
Swordmaker from #134: "Actually, the figure on the Shroud is NOT over six feet tall."
We've been over this argument before, and my conclusion from it is: the "raw image" on the Shroud IS indeed WELL over six feet tall, but this number is unacceptable to most specialists who've studied it, and so they all devise methods for explaining and reducing its height to more "normal" numbers.
What they ALL do is assume the cloth was draped loosely over the body, so that the imprint when stretched out would naturally seem taller than it was.
The issue then is how loosely was the cloth draped? Those who say the image is taller assume a tighter wrap, those who say the image is shorter assume a much looser wrap. Which is the correct amount? I think that's highly debatable.
Swordmaker from #134: "Another assumption that "everyone knows" that has been falsified by actual hands on research, is the "factoid" that 1st Century jews were of small stature."
Swordmaker uses as reference: This study by Fanti, Marinnelli & Cagnazzo.
This study argues that, despite apparent "Northern European" features (tall height, slim face), the Shroud image is in fact entirely Semitic. And the key fact they point to is the "Tibio-femoral index," of 83.3, which is almost identical with supposedly typical "Semites" of the time.
But not so fast. First off, corresponding data for Northern Europeans is missing from the chart, and so is ANY other data on supposedly typical "Semites." So some direct comparisons are impossible.
But one place we can make comparisons is in the Shroud's height:
Another place is the "Nasal index" which most closely resembles that of a Middle Easterner. Is that the same as a "Semite"? No data provided.
My point here is: for a supposedly thorough scientific study, the Fanti et al report is missing a lot of data, and makes some very convenient assumptions.
My agenda?
My agenda is, “Please don’t urinate down my back and tell me it’s raining. And, when in doubt, follow the money.” Turin’s shroud might have been Jesus’ shroud, but it ain’t likely. Can’t prove it wasn’t, but those who hope it was are just hoping, and cherry-picking data, and making, as BroJoeK puts it, some very convenient assumptions.
P.S. Suggested Jesus ever went to Spain? You misunderstood, but my phrasing wasn’t too clear, either. “Never been to Spain” is from the old Three Dog Night song.
“Well I never been to Spain
But I kinda like the music.
They say the ladies are insane there
And they sure know how to use it.”
I think this is very worthwhile for believers.
PING to END TIMES, DREAMS, VISIONS, PROPHECY PING LIST
Is this the face of Christ?.....NO
Now, you’re not suggesting any sort of connection here, are ya?
The image on the Shroud is a man in his early to mid-30’s of Semitic origin. This has been long known.
The wound in the man’s side (his anatomical right side) is consistent (in size, shape) with a wound caused by a Roman thrusting spear (”hasta”). It pierced his heart. At that wound site, there is clear evidence of the presence of serum and plasma (aka “blood and water”). This only happens after death. Therefore, it is clear he was already dead when the spear was thrust into his side.
Nope. Just my way of bumping a thread.
His face DOES look bad, it's in several layers. It is swollen, or odd looking. Can't see the back.
Love seeing the 3-D images.
Personally, I don’t believe the face cloth was around his head in the tomb. Here’s why:
- Swordmaker is quite correct: it clearly was the norm of the day (consistent with Jewish burial practices)...but...
- His ‘burial’ was an incomplete process. It was quite rushed due to impending Passover. Therefore, all preparations of his body were very hurried. Minimal “cleanup”, placing items with his tissue (blood being “tissue”) in with him. This has long been Jewish custom. Recent studies suggest imagery on the Shroud of a spear, a flagrum, etc.; not conclusive yet, though. There are also numerous flowers and types of flowers, leptons on the eyes (the two coins, by the way, have been identified as leptons hand minted during the time frame of 29-33 AD, during the reign of one Pontius Pilate), etc.
- His body was in rigor........not putrefaction, but rigor. His body would have remained in that position; one leg raised up slightly, jaw closed, etc.
- His body was to be properly prepared AFTER Passover; that is exactly why they returned in 3 days to the tomb: to properly prepare him; to finish the job
- Well....as we know.....when they showed up, he was already gone; no need to “finish the job”
- There is absolutely no image on the Cloth of Oviedo. If it had been wrapped around his head, one would expect similar imagery mechanisms/presence as those that appeared on the Shroud during this energetic event. There are none.
- It WAS found in the tomb by the Shroud.
- The blood stains on the cloth have been photographically matched to those on the Shroud....and match very, very well
- Both cloths have the same blood type on them: AB+
- The history of the Cloth of Oviedo is well-documented, dating back to the 3rd century (at least....).
So I am completely convinced they were on the same body (the Shroud of Turin, the Cloth of Oviedo)....but I don’t believe in this particular instance that the cloth had actually been tied around his head to secure the jaw, etc., for reasons stated above.
Not showing up in the posts here, but the wound is there in other photos I have seen.
LOL.....ok.
So the extra cloth might have been used to mop up some of the blood on the ground?
I recall seeing Israeli’s after a terrorist bombing cleaning up the site. Volunteers, and done in a religious manner to fulfill their burial requirements/traditions.
You can get a copy of “The Fabric of Time” at Amazon.com Just ordered a copy.
Joh 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
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