The Beginning of the Reformation's End?

The Wall Street Journal ^ | 2/26/10 | Charlotte Hays

[marshmallow]

On a recent evening, about 60 people—ex-Episcopalians, curious Catholics and a smattering of earnest Episcopal priests in clerical collars—gathered downtown for an unusual liturgy: It was Evensong and Benediction, sung according to the Book of Divine Worship, an Anglican Use liturgical book still being prepared in Rome.

Beautiful evensongs are a signature of Protestant Episcopal worship. Benediction, which consists of hymns, canticles or litanies before the consecrated host on the altar, is a Catholic devotion. We were getting a blend of both at St. Mary Mother of God Church, lent for the occasion.

One former Episcopalian present confessed to having to choke back tears as the first plainsong strains of "Humbly I Adore Thee," the Anglican version of a hymn by St. Thomas Aquinas, floated down from the organ in the balcony. A convert to Catholicism, she could not believe she was sitting in a Catholic Church, hearing the words of her Anglican girlhood—and as part of an authorized, Roman Catholic liturgy.

And that was not the only miracle. Although the texts had been carefully vetted in Rome for theological points, the words being sung were written by Thomas Cranmer, King Henry VIII's architect of the English Reformation. "He remembering his mercy hath holpen his servant Israel," the congregation chanted, "as he promised to our forefathers, Abraham and his seed for ever."

The language of this translation of the Magnificat, one of Christianity's two great evening canticles, is unfamiliar to many Episcopalians today, as it comes from earlier versions of their Book of Common Prayer. Yet a number of former Anglicans are eager to carry some of this liturgy with them when they swim the Tiber, as Episcopalians becoming Catholic often call the conversion. "I wonder why the phrase 'and there is no health in us' was omitted from the...................

[Marysecretary]

Amen, PWT.

[Marysecretary]

That’s even worse than worshipping a pastor, which we sure don’t, and throw in a little Mary worship as icing on that cake...oh, and don’t forget those Saints, icons and idols.....

[The Ignorant Fisherman]

Ecumenicalism... just as God said it will be... It is a sign of the last days....

Even so come Lord Jesus..

[The Ignorant Fisherman]

Amen.. preach it my bro!

[Cronos]

Even Marcionites and Gnostics believed they had been "saved" -- very earnest devout people, but they had been misled by their pastors who led them into heresy away from Christ and Christ's Church.

While they believed sincerely, they were following the wrong path -- the path away from God.

And so it is with many of the children sects or sub-sects of the Protestant re-formatting.

I have no doubt that you sincerely, honestly and truly believe what you believe and believe that you are following Christ and that you are a devout, God-fearing person, but so too did those who followed other heresies and all of these died away showing how lacking in grace and righteousness their teachings were and how they were NOT of Christ

In contrast, the teachings of the Apostolic Church are from Christ and His Apostles.

Turn away from heresy and accept Christ and be saved, truly saved, not having some pastor jump around and say "Hallelujah you're one of the elect" -- those are false prophets whose philosophies will die, just as the Church of England's philosophies are dying and all the other heresies are dead or dying

If you have too much historical angst taught to you against the Western Patriarchy, by all means do join the Orthodox or the Coptic/Armenian/Assyrian Church -- they are all part of the One CAtholic and Apostolic Church equally with the Latin, Maronite, Syro-Malabar, Syro-Malankara, Chaldean, etc, Catholic Churches

Come and experience the joy of being with Christ and following Christ and accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and God, not some pastor.

Christ's bride, The Church has been guiding Christians for 2000 years and has seen all the heresies die away, She will be there for you as a repository of Christ and His Apostles and His Church's knowledge -- the teachings, debates, intepretations of 2000 years of saints

[Grunthor]

Turn away from heresy and accept Christ and be saved, truly saved, not having some pastor jump around and say “Hallelujah you’re one of the elect” — those are false prophets whose philosophies will die, just as the Church of England’s philosophies are dying and all the other heresies are dead or dying

---

You’ve never once been to a Protestant church service, have you?

[Cronos]

Actually, no, we don't believe some old guy in a funny hat in Rome is infallible in everything. We don't even believe that the Pope is infallible in everything and every pronounce made that is not ex-cathedra. The Pope can say tomorrow that we should have fried eggs instead of scrambled and that's his PERSONAL view and we are under no obligation to follow that -- quite unlike pastor-driven, man-made groups that are outside The CHurch.

The doctrine of infallibility was used only about a half-dozen time in the past 2000 years and since 1870 it has been used only once in 1950.

That may come as a surprise to you, but the popular idea of infallibility is wrong -- it's only used on a matter of dogma when the pope speaks specifically of it ex-cathedra, i.e. in his role as the successor of +Peter.

An infallible pronouncement -- whether made by the pope or an ecumenical council is made only when some doctrine has been called into question. most doctrines have never been doubted by the large majority of Christians.

The Church teachings have been defined by ecumenical councils -- in fact, there are many major topics on which it would be impossible for a pope to make an infallible definition without duplicating one or more infallible pronouncements from ecumenical concils -- hence there is no sudden new developments made ex-cathedra.

infallibility is NOT impeccability -- there is no guarantee that popes won't sin or give bad example, but they do not proclaim points of incorrect dogma ex-cathedra. Popes have disagreed with others, but those would be his own private theological opinions which are NOT infallible -- no more than yours. Infallibility aookues ibkt ti solemn, official teachigns on faith or morals, not to disciplinary decisions or even to unofficial comments on faith or morals. What it DOES do is prevent a pope or council from solemnly and formally teachign as "truth" something that is, in fact, error. This is grace given by God coupled with the theological study of the Church and councils.

Repeating again -- since 1870, this has only been used ONCE in 195.

Individual interpretations as used by those outside The Church do not have the depth and the grace of the Holy Spirit which has guided the Church through 2000 years. While Origen and Tertullian as individuals made flawed interpretations, the Church as a whole did not. While +Augustine erred in his youth as did Ignatius of Loyola, the Church did not.

The Church is a community of Christian believers stretching back to the Apostles -- we together constitute The Church -- this is a community not an institution, a community of Jesus Christ. Hence, since we are of God, our community survives, while those NOT of God, but man-made (heresies) die.

[Cronos]

The idea of sola interpretura created a vast population of readers who receive a quantity of information without a basis and so flounder in this and come up with their own interpretation — it’s like giving toddlers a book on calculus without instructing them on arithmetic. This has created the sola interpretura types who are filled with the conceit of wisdom instead of real wisdom which comes FROM the Apostles, through the humble acceptance of 2000 years of Christians (laity and clergy)

[Cronos]

Actually the sign of the last days is

786



The number of the false Prophet Mohammed and his dragon/demon God Allah

[Grunthor]

and we are under no obligation to follow that — quite unlike pastor-driven, man-made groups that are outside The CHurch.

---

Outside what church? Examples?

[rollo tomasi]

"So what? What does it matter what you’re waiting for?"

I am not waiting for anything since Papal authority means jack squat in the grand scheme of things. Yes, the Roman Catholic Church has a nice run but is not the only "game" in town. It's not like they can't spear chuck someone who goes against their made up authority anymore. If the RCC wants to maintain their man-made, internal superority it's their problem, not the reformers, Protestants Orthodox, catholics, evangelicals, Baptist etc...

I read books about the Papacy, books about the Orthodox Church, books about the reformation, books about translations, studied early church fathers, books about RCC persecution, books about protestant persecution, been through 16 years of Roman Catholic education, Masters in History, saw first hand what corrupt bureaucracies disguised as supposed followers of Christ can do to a person's psyche (The cover-up is always worse than the crime) and can comprehend Scriptures (As promised by, gasp, the Bible, Word of God).

Still no earthly "institution" from a consensus that makes claims about the superiority of the Papacy and the Church of Rome. Ex cathedra out of thin air, from what, 1800 years of that super power finally being "discovered". Too funny. Like what certain Protties say about RCC so to does the "sola scriptura" get misunderstood. But I am not talking about the Bible when it comes to the Papacy, I am talking about tradition like the likes of 'Historia Ecclesiae'. Still scratch my head about some earthly "primacy being" on earth. Christ is the only primacy, also, does not have some special agent coming from a political process by sinners vowing for power. Also, love how Latin translations of Irenaeus are bended to fit a certain POV. The Orthodox really get a kick out of those translations.

"Uh, in case you didn't’t know, the papacy existed BEFORE Christianity was even recognized as legal by the Roman Empire."

Uh, no kidding. But the first to be called Pope was Heracles. That is beside the point. My point was SUPEROIRITY became established long after Constantine did "his thing". Normans remember, as was mentioned on an earlier post. Rome did not start going all arrogant until well after Constantine. Again, "tradition"/history. I will check out Soloviev but did he not get last rites from an Orthodox priest? Sounds really committed /s, besides Eusebius lacks any type of spin and is closer to the source (By about 1500 years).

[Cronos]

Outside The Church, The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church (which includes the Orthodox, Catholic, Oriental and Assyrian Churches).

Examples -- the group of Benny Hinn, the group of Kenneth Copeland, the group of Micheal Servetus, the Christian Scientists, the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.

[Cronos]

it’s not a question of “nice run” — thanks to God’s grace, Christ’s Church, The Catholic and Apostolic Church has survived 2000 years of bad priests, popes etc. and numerous heresies. The heresies DIE out — as the article states, they last at the most 500 odd years. All the new Pentecostal, fundamentalist groups are 100 odd years old so they seem powerful, but they are man-made and will die.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“Yes, the Roman Catholic Church has a nice run but is not the only “game” in town.”

Yes, the Catholic Church was the only Church. What a stunning admission on your part.

“It’s not like they can’t spear chuck someone who goes against their made up authority anymore.”

You must really be a bitter person to make up things like that.

“If the RCC wants to maintain their man-made, internal superority it’s their problem, not the reformers, Protestants Orthodox, catholics, evangelicals, Baptist etc...”

The Catholic Church has flourished for 2,000 years. That’s not man made nor could it ever be.

“I read books about the Papacy, books about the Orthodox Church, books about the reformation, books about...”

But you’ve never read the books I mentioned right? Be honest.

“Still no earthly “institution” from a consensus that makes claims about the superiority of the Papacy and the Church of Rome.”

The Church is not just an earthly institution.

“Ex cathedra out of thin air, from what, 1800 years of that super power finally being “discovered”.”

Uh, no. You really have never studied any of this have you? Did you ever even look into the medieval debates on papal infallibility? No, apparently not. Your MA may be in history, but that doesn’t mean you know Church history.

“I will check out Soloviev but did he not get last rites from an Orthodox priest? Sounds really committed /s, besides Eusebius lacks any type of spin and is closer to the source (By about 1500 years).”

Wow, you’ve never read Soloviev’s book but you think you have a point when you mention he received last rites from an Orthodox priest? That just mean your ignorance is even deeper than expected. Read about him and you’ll se why that was no problem for him. Also, if you think Eusebius “lacks any type of spin” then you have never read Eusebius and don’t know anything about him. At least you could have read Barnes’ Constantine and Eusebius (1981). It is considered something of a minor modern classic.

Keep prattling uselessly exposing what you don’t know in post after post. I don’t mind.

[Marysecretary]

I don’t believe it..I KNOW IT. It’s called BLESSED ASSURANCE.

[HossB86]

Rollo,

Keep in mind that when you deal with Vlad you will ways be wrong, your education is inferior, and you just plain know nothing.

Funny how blinded one can become by hubris, isn’t it? And I’m sure I’ll be told, “yes, you are blind, Little Joe.”

:D

Hang in there Rollo.

Hoss.

[Cronos]

well, if you're following a heretic (which in most Fundamentalists cases is actually following someone who was born into the descendents of those who followed heretics), you may be in the same pot as those who followed John Smith and the Mormons or those who follow the ECUSA. It's not called Blessed assurance if you follow a Gnostic or any other man-made religion.

Give up those man-made religions and come follow Christ in Christ's Church -- the 2000 year old community of believers that is The Catholic and Apostolic Church -- give up the pastor and accept Christ and come be saved by God's grace in The Church graced by God for 2000 years

[Cronos]

And here’s a good article on how the various groups of Protestants will die out while The Church as formed by Christ will survive — 500 odd years is the run for any heresy. The OPC was formed in the late 1800s, but it’s already dying, so the death is happening earlier these days.

[Cronos]

writing this out for everyone's opine -- St. Ignatius of Antioch, writing in the first century wrote: "I am not saying, though, that I found you in any sort of actual divisions: it was only the filtering out of a few dregs. Every man who belongs to God and Jesus Christ stands by his bishop. As for the rest, if they repent and come back into the unity of The Church, they too shall belong to God, and so bring their lives into conformity with Jesus Christ. But make no mistkae, my brothers; the adherents of a heretic can never inherit the kingdom of God. Those who wander in outlandish by-ways of doctrine must forfeit all part in the Lord's Passion."

This is from the Epistle to the Philadelphians

[Cronos]

From the article

The service was conducted by Father Eric Bergman, a Yale Divinity School-educated former Episcopal clergyman who was ordained a Catholic priest in 2007. Father Bergman stresses that this is not an overture to effete Episcopalians who are angry about changes in their church and want to sneak into the Catholic Church bringing nothing more than their pretty music. Being "angry about Gene Robinson," he says of the openly homosexual bishop of New Hampshire, isn't enough reason to become a Catholic. There must be a real conversion to the tenets of Catholicism.

Father Bergman says he began his journey to the Catholic Church by thinking about something that has taken many liberal Catholics out of the church: contraception. He regards Anglicanism's 1930 embrace of contraception as a mistake: "Out of that came a confusion about the roles of men and women, a theology of androgyny," he says.

Father Bergman and his wife, Kristina, have six children. They and more than 60 members of his Episcopal parish came into the Catholic Church in 2005. He is now chaplain of the St. Thomas More Society in Scranton, Pa., which seeks to establish Anglican Use parishes.

Naturally, many liberal Catholics are less than thrilled at the prospect of stodgy former Episcopalians importing traditional opinions along with their non-Catholic thou's and thy's. In a Nov. 23, 2009, story "Where Hype Meets Reality," the liberal National Catholic Reporter pooh-poohed the idea of large numbers of Anglicans coming in under the pope's new rules.

But Father Bergman not only predicts a mass movement toward Rome. He believes Anglican Use may mark the beginning of the end of the Reformation. There will be "a flourishing of this throughout the world," he says. "Wherever there are Anglicans, there will be people who want to enter Holy Mother Church." As he told a rapt audience at St. Mary's, "If we look at histories, heresies run themselves out after about 500 years. I believe we are seeing the last gasp of the Reformation in the mainline Protestant groups."

And so, I ask Father Bergman, how does he feel about a liturgy using the words of Cranmer, one of the Reformation's pivotal figures, in the Catholic Church? "A despicable fellow," he replies. Even so, he notes, the liturgy Cranmer created was built upon Catholic sources, and where elements were retained they now fit into the Catholic Church. Father Bergman doesn't quite say that it's "meet and right" to use those and many others of Cranmer's now-famous words. But it is clear that this is what he means.