Posted on 02/26/2010 6:24:33 AM PST by marshmallow
I have a pile of books in my study for review, and if people are kind enough to send me a book I try to read it and review it if I can. I also have a belief that I should read every book someone sends me rather than just the books I want to read because this is the way God cracks open my clam like closed mind and heart just a little bit more.
Thus the splendid commentary on Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp of Smyrna comes my way. Like most converts, I'm a fan of the fathers. I mean, their splendiferous names alone are rather admirable. These guys are not called Harry Jones or Bill Button. Ignatius of Antioch. Polycarp of Smyrna. There's a certain rolling sense of thunder about them. They are to be reckoned with. They demand bold type. Their icons are august and awesome. Bearded and serious they are...the are the Dumbledores, the Gandalfs, the wizened wise wizards of the gallery of saints. They are the patristical patriarchs.
Enough purple prose. You know their stories or if you don't you should. Ignatius comes along as bishop of Antioch just a few years after Peter himself was there. Some say he is the third bishop after Peter, and that Peter himself appointed him. He is one of the originals, and the story goes that he was one of the children Jesus took up and blessed. "Let the little children come unto me and forbid them not." If only he had recorded the story in his letters, "You know my dear children," he could have written, "I still remember to this day when our Lord Jesus Christ the king of glory took me in his arms and blessed me. Who can forget that tender voice? Who, once blessed, could forget the look of eternity in his eyes?"
Alas, no such record exists, but he did write six splendid letters to the churches while he was on his way to Rome to be devoured by the wild beasts during the terrible persecutions. These letters till exist, and give us a beautiful and simple insight into the early church. How I wish that all our Evangelical brethren who want their church to be 'just like the early church' would take the trouble to read these letters so they would learn just what the early church was really like. Here you find a clear and uncompromising insistence on the centrality of the episcopacy, an established priesthood and diaconate, a clear understanding of our Lord's divinity and the doctrine of the Real Presence.
Then we have a letter that Ignatius wrote to Polycarp of Smyrna, and Polycarp's letter to the Philippians. These letters from such holy men ooze the apostolic spirit. They are vivid accounts of the concerns of those early Christians, and as such they have been held as precious documents by all who love the church from the earliest times.
Now what about this book? It gathers all these letters together and gives us biographical goodies about both these patriarchs. Kenneth Howell is a well known convert from Presbyterianism. A great scholar, he offers these new translations of the Ignatian and Polycarpian letters along with introductory essays and a verse by verse commentary. The handsome book has been produced by Coming Home Resources and is available here .
What I liked about this book is that once more I was able to spend time with these two venerable and holy men. The beauty of letters (rather than theological tomes) is that they are written by real people to real people in real situations. An epistle is a very incarnational form of literature. It's immediate and it's amazing to me how vital and relevant and alive these letters are despite being 2000 years old. If you have a bookish sort of Evangelical friend, why not get him this book and challenge him to discover what the early church was like. Then get into a discussion about it. It's cool to think that these 2000 year old fathers might help in 2010 evangelization.
I'm not through with the book yet because I'm eating it like an apple: small bites and chewing long. I recommend you do the same.
Of course he wrote it.
Would you like me to explain what it means?
It means that in matters of faith, we are entirely fallible and fallen sinners. Fallible to the extent that we ought not to trust even our own eyes. The Church, on the other hand, being the Bride of Christ, is infallible and can be trusted in all matters of faith. It was given to us by Jesus himself to guide us on the path to salvation.
It's called obedience, which is a virtue.
To that, compare the pride-engendered Protestant position, which says that moi....is the one who gets to make the final call. Obedience is not for me. If I say it's white, then that's all that matters.
That's called rebellion.
It is demonic.
IGNASIUS LOYOLA: ""To be right in everything, we ought always to hold that the white which I see, is black, if the Hierarchical Church so decides it"
He is telling Roman Catholics to ignore what their own lying eyes reveal to them; what their own conscience tells them; what the Scriptures teach them; and simply go along with the papacy's deflection of the truth.
That's exactly what the words are saying. There's nothing new in telling lies for expediency's sake, for power and control. Scripture tells us what happens to that kind of intentional misdirection -- "woe unto them..."
"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" -- Isaiah 5:20
"Moi" is not the "final call."
Scripture is the final call, the measure of all truth and life and spirit, our only rule of faith and practice.
The Roman Catholic church could have this type of clarity, too, if they would simply stop saying "black is white" and learn from God's word which does not lie for any reason.
"For the word of the Lord is right; and all his works are done in truth." -- Psalm 33:4
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joseph, and Jude, and Simon? are not also his sisters here with us? And they were scandalized in regard of him. (Mark 6:3)We see now through a glass in a dark manner; but then face to face (1 Corinthians 13:12)
Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke: and gave to his disciples, and said: Take ye, and eat. This is my body. (Matthew 26:26)
But is the Church similarly confused?
He that heareth you, heareth me (Luke 10:16)18 ...upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. (Matthew 16, Matthew 18:18 similar)
I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren (Luke 22:32)
He's saying that the Church is our Mother and that left to our own devices we fall into error.
Strange to hear this coming from a Calvinist. I thought we were utterly corrupt. Now you're telling us that we can figure it all out for ourselves? Most peculiar.
Has the story changed yet again?
what their own conscience tells them;
Much better to listen to the Bride of Christ than our own utterly corrupt conscience, right Doc? Is conscience now the final arbiter of right and wrong, is that what you're saying Doc? If my conscience tells me there's no problem, then that's all that matters? There's no external, objective standard of truth?
Conscience needs to be formed according to certain principles, does it not?
what the Scriptures teach them;
All sorts of baloney masquerades as Scriptural teaching. Scripture apparently "teaches" all sorts of things to all sorts of different people. Don't make me post that graphic of the various offshoots, branches and splinters of the Presbyterian Church. Is that the result of Scriptural "teaching".
and simply go along with the papacy's deflection of the truth.
Ah yes.......same old shtick........"the Catholic Church is lying"
Don't you get tired of posting this tripe?
So tell us Doc, if the "papacy is deflecting the truth", who gets to decide what is and is not "truth"? No, don't say "Scripture". It's your own personal interpretation of Scripture. It's you, right? In the end, it all comes down to you.
Like I said......rebellion, pure and simple.
Pride.
No Doc, you're not getting away with that little wiggle and two-step.
Get it right.
It's not Scripture.
It's your very own, infallible, personal, one man, magisterial interpretation of Scripture. It's you. You, you, you.
Nice try.
The Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, doesn't infallibly teach and guide us.
We take care of it ourselves under the guise of "Scripture".
Hah!!
But it's no coincidence Ignatius began the Jesuits whose raison d'etre was to undermine and destroy the Reformation through subversion and guile.
IGNASIUS LOYOLA: "To be right in everything, we ought always to hold that the white which I see, is black, if the Hierarchical Church so decides it"
This statement (and various RC apologists' defense of it) tell us that in the Roman Catholic church, power is more important than the truth.
A much better statement, a clearer truth that actually glorifies God, would have been to say "the church will always say black is black and white is white because the church is not deceitful and the church does not lead men astray through duplicity."
"Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it." -- Psalm 119:40
Maybe the reason Roman Catholics seem to disregard so much of God's word is because they do not believe it to be "pure" and therefore, they do not love it.
lol. Thanks for telling me what to post, but since I'm used to calling black black and white white I think I'll speak for myself.
Scripture.
I realize the Roman Catholic has a problem with this answer. But it's the correct answer so they'll just have to deal with it.
But, they would be wrong.
Children understand the Gospel. Where does that leave adults who deny God's word? When Scripture tells us there is only one mediator between God and men, the man, Christ Jesus, and the Roman Catholic apologist says Mary is a mediator, too, who are we to believe?
Ask a child who reads the Bible. They probably know the answer.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." -- 2 timothy 3:15-17"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
You'll be speaking for you utterly depraved and completely fallen Calvinist self. Get it right. And who knows if such a person should really be trusted with the interpretation of a matter as important as Scripture?
No thanks.
That's not where I want to go for the truth.
I want the infallible, stainless, indefectable Bride of Christ's word on this matter.
In the pews of an Orthodox Calvinist church.
Scripture is "easy"??
Really??
Then what's this I read in 2Peter, 3: 15-17??
And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation; as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.
Could that be Peter saying that certain things in Paul's letters are hard to understand?? Nooooo.........say it aint so.........LOL!!
But wait...........there's more!! What's this in 2Peter 1: 19-20??
And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.
What?? No prophecy of Scripture is made by .........*gasp*.......private interpretation!!
Oh Doc.............you need to pay more attention to the Scriptures. They're the Word of God. I hate it when you guys just ignore Scripture!
Maybe the reason Free Republic Catholics seem to disregard so much of your word is because they believe it to be impure and therefore, they despise it.
That is a wise choice.
You mean the one that says black is white? The one who has apologists defending that gibberish?
That's not the Bride of Christ. That's not God's word.
That's a lie. Black is not white, regardless of the expedient presumption for saying so.
Certainly their prerogative.
Two Fathers [Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp of Smyrna]
ST POLYCARP, BISHOP OF SMYRNA, MARTYR—7?-166
St Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna, Martyr[Disciple of St John,the Evangelist]
The Life and Writings of Saint Hilary of Poitiers[Bishop and Martyr]
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