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Two Fathers [Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp of Smyrna]
Standing on My Head ^ | 2/25/10 | Fr. Dwight Longenecker

Posted on 02/26/2010 6:24:33 AM PST by marshmallow

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How I wish that all our Evangelical brethren who want their church to be 'just like the early church' would take the trouble to read these letters so they would learn just what the early church was really like. Here you find a clear and uncompromising insistence on the centrality of the episcopacy, an established priesthood and diaconate, a clear understanding of our Lord's divinity and the doctrine of the Real Presence.

Er..........a loud *ahem* to the usual suspects......... :-)

1 posted on 02/26/2010 6:24:33 AM PST by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow

Fascinating, thanks for posting!


2 posted on 02/26/2010 6:27:02 AM PST by agere_contra
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To: marshmallow

I don’t know about being a suspect, but these are two of my favority Apostolic Fathers and I have enjoyed many evenings meditating with them about how to maintain the Spirit in myself and others. Truly great and inspirational saintly men.


3 posted on 02/26/2010 6:29:23 AM PST by BelegStrongbow (Dear Leader: you have two ears and one mouth. Start using them in proportion.)
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To: marshmallow

The passage from Ignatius where he claims he was the disciple of John?


4 posted on 02/26/2010 6:56:19 AM PST by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88
The passage from Ignatius where he claims he was the disciple of John?

The passage to which you are referring is not considered to be an authentic letter of St. Ignatius and is not included in the above manuscript.

From the Catholic Encylopedia:

At intervals during the last several centuries a warm controversy has been carried on by patrologists concerning the authenticity of the Ignatian letters. Each particular recension has had its apologists and its opponents. Each has been favored to the exclusion of all the others, and all, in turn, have been collectively rejected, especially by the coreligionists of Calvin. The reformer himself, in language as violent as it is uncritical (Institutes, 1-3), repudiates in globo the letters which so completely discredit his own peculiar views on ecclesiastical government.

The convincing evidence which the letters bear to the Divine origin of Catholic doctrine is not conducive to predisposing non-Catholic critics in their favor, in fact, it has added not a little to the heat of the controversy. In general, Catholic and Anglican scholars are ranged on the side of the letters written to the Ephesians, Magnesians, Trallians, Romans, Philadelphians, Smyrniots, and to Polycarp; whilst Presbyterians, as a rule, and perhaps a priori, repudiate everything claiming Ignatian authorship.

The two letters to the Apostle St. John and the one to the Blessed Virgin, which exist only in Latin, are unanimously admitted to be spurious. The great body of critics who acknowledge the authenticity of the Ignatian letters restrict their approval to those mentioned by Eusebius and St. Jerome. The six others are not defended by any of the early Fathers. The majority of those who acknowledge the Ignatian authorship of the seven letters do so conditionally, rejecting what they consider the obvious interpolations in these letters. In 1623, whilst the controversy was at its height, Vedelius gave expression to this latter opinion by publishing at Geneva an edition of the Ignatian letters in which the seven genuine letters are set apart from the five spurious. In the genuine letters he indicated what was regarded as interpolations.

Etc, etc................

5 posted on 02/26/2010 7:32:49 AM PST by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: marshmallow

So his perspective is no more “apostolic” than any fellow that claimed to understand the Gospel.


6 posted on 02/26/2010 7:38:00 AM PST by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88
So his perspective is no more “apostolic” than any fellow that claimed to understand the Gospel.

Can "any fellow that claimed to understand the Gospel" also claim apostolic succession and episcopal consecration at the hands of the same?

Ibid........

If we include St. Peter, Ignatius was the third Bishop of Antioch and the immediate successor of Evodius (Eusebius, Church History II.3.22). Theodoret ("Dial. Immutab.", I, iv, 33a, Paris, 1642) is the authority for the statement that St. Peter appointed Ignatius to the See of Antioch. St. John Chrysostom lays special emphasis on the honor conferred upon the martyr in receiving his episcopal consecration at the hands of the Apostles themselves ("Hom. in St. Ig.", IV. 587).

7 posted on 02/26/2010 7:46:22 AM PST by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: Dutchboy88
So his perspective is no more “apostolic”

Wrong. He knew Peter and probably John and Paul personally.

His "Letter to John" is spurious; that's not the same as saying he never knew him.

Polycarp was definitely a disciple of John.

8 posted on 02/26/2010 7:48:56 AM PST by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed imposter")
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To: Campion
"He knew Peter and probably John and Paul personally.

"probably"? So give us the evidence...

9 posted on 02/26/2010 8:17:18 AM PST by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88

Go look it up. Like We did. I would say start with the blog Biblical Evidence for Catholicism by Dave Armstrong on Google and Guess what he also shows the other side’s view honestly unlike some apologists -May Christ Bless you PS: look in his archive section


10 posted on 02/26/2010 10:05:40 AM PST by johngrace
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To: johngrace
"Go look it up. Like We did'

Tell you what...I don't need to follow up on more spurious stories from the Roman group that manufactures its stories to match its teachings. Some day, look into the truth of the Scriptures and read that the Gospel is much different than the Vatican claims. And turn to Christ alone...if you can.

11 posted on 02/26/2010 10:47:46 AM PST by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88

You wanted the evidence so I gave it to you. The gentleman who runs the blog is an ex-protestant you might learn something. bye


12 posted on 02/26/2010 11:15:50 AM PST by johngrace
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To: Dutchboy88; Campion
Tell you what...I don't need to follow up on more spurious stories from the Roman group that manufactures its stories to match its teachings. Some day, look into the truth of the Scriptures and read that the Gospel is much different than the Vatican claims. And turn to Christ alone...if you can.

Naturally.

The letters of Ignatius and Polycarp are a slam dunk in the face of those who question Catholic teaching and authority.

All that's left is the denial of their authenticity.

13 posted on 02/26/2010 11:36:03 AM PST by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: johngrace
"The gentleman who runs the blog is an ex-protestant you might learn something. bye"

If you would like to read the blogs from the many ex-Catholics that found freedom from the chains of Rome, escaped the deep error of man-made tradition and superstitions, let us know. You probably won't learn anything, because it is God who grants eyes to see and ears to hear. And, Rome has been slighted from this benefit.

14 posted on 02/26/2010 11:42:52 AM PST by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88

I read them all the time.


15 posted on 02/26/2010 3:44:25 PM PST by johngrace
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To: Dutchboy88; RnMomof7; the_conscience; blue-duncan; HarleyD; wmfights; Gamecock; Forest Keeper; ...
Your defense of the faith has been admirable on this thread (and everywhere else.) All glory to God alone.

Ignatius Loyola, godfather of the counter-Reformation guard dogs, the Jesuits, wrote this in his "Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius"...

TO HAVE THE TRUE SENTIMENT WHICH WE OUGHT TO HAVE IN THE CHURCH MILITANT 

Let the following Rules be observed. 

First Rule

The first: All judgment laid aside, we ought to have our mind ready and prompt to obey, in all, the true Spouse of Christ our Lord, which is our holy Mother the Church Hierarchical.

Second Rule

The second: To praise confession to a Priest, and the reception of the most Holy Sacrament of the Altar once in the year, and much more each month, and much better from week to week, with the conditions required and due.

Third Rule

The third: To praise the hearing of Mass often, likewise hymns, psalms, and long prayers, in the church and out of it; likewise the hours set at the time fixed for each Divine Office and for all prayer and all Canonical Hours.

Thirteenth Rule.

To be right in everything, we ought always to hold that the white which I see, is black, if the Hierarchical Church so decides it, believing that between Christ our Lord, the Bridegroom, and the Church, His Bride, there is the same Spirit which governs and directs us for the salvation of our souls. Because by the same Spirit and our Lord Who gave the ten Commandments, our holy Mother the Church is directed and governed.

Catch that last part - be ready and willing to say white is black in order to defend Rome's agenda.

Lol. Who says times change?

16 posted on 02/26/2010 5:04:58 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Dutchboy88
Some say he is the third bishop after Peter, and that Peter himself appointed him

.Some say? We're led to believe they have notarized statements,certified copies of HS transfusions, not hearsay.

17 posted on 02/26/2010 6:12:56 PM PST by 1000 silverlings (everything that deceives, also enchants: Plato)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
LOL..........yeah gotta hand it to ya, Doc!! You've got us pegged!

Yep, we made the whole thing up............Ignatius.........Polycarp.........the Church Fathers........it's all a myth! All part of our fiendish Roman agenda to enchain the human race.......LOL..........

....*shaking head*.........

18 posted on 02/26/2010 7:13:56 PM PST by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: marshmallow
IGNASIUS LOYOLA: "To be right in everything, we ought always to hold that the white which I see, is black, if the Hierarchical Church so decides it"

Did Ignasius write that or not?

Or is this black, too?

19 posted on 02/26/2010 8:14:25 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Wow you do not know how to read that. What he is saying is that if what i think is White can be corrected, not to lie.Wow You know what you see- what you... want to see, not whats there. His belief is that the Church came first then the the new testament. Say he reads the bible mistakenly and gets the interpretation wrong then is corrected just like you would be corrected by an elder of the church so what he thought was correct can be wrong. If you see anything else your wrong. May Christ open your eyes. God help us


20 posted on 02/26/2010 8:21:03 PM PST by johngrace
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