Catholic Biblical Apologetics:Christ instituted only 1 church..formally..specifically..visible one.

CatholicApologetics.org ^ | 1985-1991 | Dr. Robert Schihl and Paul Flanagan

[Salvation]

Catholic Biblical Apologetics

Apologetics without apology!

What does the Roman Catholic Church teach about ...? ... and why?

This website surveys the origin and development of Roman Catholic Christianity from the period of the apostolic church, through the post-apostolic church and into the conciliar movement. Principal attention is paid to the biblical basis of both doctrine and dogma as well as the role of paradosis (i.e. handing on the truth) in the history of the Church. Particular attention is also paid to the hierarchical founding and succession of leadership throughout the centuries.

This is a set of lecture notes used since 1985 to teach the basis for key doctrines and dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church. The objectives of the course were, and are:

• To present the biblical basis for the origin and development of the Roman Catholic Church.
• To present the development of the canon of Scripture and evolution of biblical teaching in the Church.
• To understand the role of paradosis/tradition in the oral transmission of revelation.
• To study the Council of Jerusalem, described in the 15^th chapter of The Acts of the Apostles and its role in the development of doctrine in the conciliar movement in the Church.
• To understand the revelation, doctrinal development and practice of the sacramental life in the history of the Church.
• To study the role of the Holy Spirit as teaching authority in the Church.
• To study the revelation and development of hierarchical authority in the Church.
• To understand the hierarchy of truths in the Church as well as the role of private devotion and personal growth in holiness.

The course grew out of the need for the authors to continually answer questions about their faith tradition and their work. (Both authors are active members of Catholic parish communities in the Diocese of Richmond, Virginia. Dr. Robert Schihl was a Professor and Associate Dean of the School of Communication and the Arts at Regent University. Paul Flanagan is a consultant specializing in preparing people for technology based changes.) At the time these notes were first prepared, the authors were spending time in their faith community answering questions about their Protestant Evangelical workplaces (Mr. Flanagan was then a senior executive at the Christian Broadcasting Network), and time in their workplaces answering similar questions about their Roman Catholic faith community. These notes are the result of more than a decade of facilitating dialogue among those who wish to learn more about what the Roman Catholic Church teaches and why.

Christ instituted only one church, and that society was both formally and specifically a visible one.

 

Christ instituted only one church, and that society was both formally and specifically a visible one.

Mt 16:18

"... upon this rock I will build my church" (Both "this rock" and "my church" are clearly singular in the Greek text.)

Jn 10:16

I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd.

Jn 17:20-21

"I pray not only for them (the Apostles), but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me."

Jn 21:15-17

When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs." He then said to him a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep." He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep."

Mt 28: 19

"Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit"

Mk 16:16

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.

[LiteKeeper]

I can accept the universal (catholic) church, but not the Roman Catholic Church as the only expression of the church of Jesus Christ.

[Petrosius]

That is not supported in scripture. There are a number of passages that discuss salvation and none of them involve bishops or the catholic church...they involve faith, belief and baptism.

Authority of the apostles:

Then he summoned his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits to drive them out and to cure every disease and every illness.… Whoever will not receive you or listen to your words--go outside that house or town and shake the dust from your feet.… Whoever receives you receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me.
Matt. 10:1,14,40

Whatever town you enter and they do not receive you, go out into the streets and say, 'The dust of your town that clings to our feet, even that we shake off against you.' Yet know this: the kingdom of God is at hand. I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom on that day than for that town. "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty deeds done in your midst had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would long ago have repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. But it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you. And as for you, Capernaum, 'Will you be exalted to heaven? You will go down to the netherworld.'" Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me."
Luke 10:10-16

Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever receives the one I send receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me.
John 13:20

(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."
John 20:21-23

The office of apostles continues after the death of the original twelve:

During those days Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers (there was a group of about one hundred and twenty persons in the one place). He said, "My brothers, the scripture had to be fulfilled which the holy Spirit spoke beforehand through the mouth of David, concerning Judas, who was the guide for those who arrested Jesus. He was numbered among us and was allotted a share in this ministry. He bought a parcel of land with the wages of his iniquity, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle, and all his insides spilled out. This became known to everyone who lived in Jerusalem, so that the parcel of land was called in their language 'Akeldama,' that is, Field of Blood. For it is written in the Book of Psalms: 'Let his encampment become desolate, and may no one dwell in it.' And: 'May another take his office.' Therefore, it is necessary that one of the men who accompanied us the whole time the Lord Jesus came and went among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day on which he was taken up from us, become with us a witness to his resurrection." So they proposed two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also known as Justus, and Matthias. Then they prayed, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen to take the place in this apostolic ministry from which Judas turned away to go to his own place." Then they gave lots to them, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was counted with the eleven apostles.
Acts 1:15-25

Catholic teaching on the Eucharist:

(Jesus said) "I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world." The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?" Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."
John 6:51-58

While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, "Take and eat; this is my body." Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.
Matt. 26:26-28

[narses]

I can accept the universal (catholic) church, but not the Roman Catholic Church as the only expression of the church of Jesus Christ.

Good, what are the specific, distinguishing marks that separate the two?

[highlander_UW]

I appreciate your cut and paste, but it doesn't address the issue that was being discussed, which was the suggestion that salvation is dependent upon believing bishops and the like....that is not scriptural.

[Petrosius]

I appreciate your cut and paste, but it doesn't address the issue that was being discussed, which was the suggestion that salvation is dependent upon believing bishops and the like....that is not scriptural.

Check again. Our Lord says that those who reject those he sends reject him. Those he send are the apostles. The office of the apostles continues after their death in those we now call bishops.

Also, the passages on the Eucharist show the need to eat his flesh and drink his blood as he latter instituted under the forms of bread and wine at the Last Supper; a very Catholic teaching.

[Natural Law]

"These verses do not demonstrate that God instituted “one church” if by that it is meant the Roman Catholic Church."

And yet through Apostolic Succession we can draw a direct, unbroken line from Peter to Benedict XVI.

[boatbums]

Well done! Good and important point. Thanks.

[highlander_UW]

Check again. Our Lord says that those who reject those he sends reject him. Those he send are the apostles. The office of the apostles continues after their death in those we now call bishops.

You're playing pretty loose and dangerous with scripture my friend. Firstly, Jesus was talking to the 72 missionaries, not just the apostles. Secondly, there is nothing in the text that indicates Jesus sent them as a hierarchy to be recognized but messengers to go before Him.

Additionally, if your claim were true then it invalidates quite a few other portions of scripture talking about salvation. So clearly your interpretation can't be correct because Jesus would not contradict the rest of His Word. Here is one of the passages you'd have abrogated by your interpretation...

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Jesus laid salvation on hearing his word and believing God for eternal life. Nothing there about any Roman hierarchy.

[Bobsvainbabblings]

Salvation, all these scriptures have nothing to do with the establishment an earthly church as fashioned by the RCC.

Christ instituted only one church, and that society was both formally and specifically a visible one.

Mt 16:18

"... upon this rock I will build my church" (Both "this rock" and "my church" are clearly singular in the Greek text.)

Jesus asked them who they thought He was. Peter responded: "You are the Christ (the anointed one of God), the son of the living God."   ¹⁷ Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. ¹⁸ And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. ¹⁹ And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed^[d] in heaven.”

²⁰ Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.

Jesus being the Christ and the Son of God is fundamental for God to have the New Testament Church and all that comes with it. He is the rock His Church is built on as Peter states the first time he speaks after being filled with the Holy Spirit after Pentecost.

⁸ Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: ⁹ If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, ¹⁰ let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. ¹¹ This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’^{[a] 12} Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Jn 10:16

I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd.

There is one flock and one Shepherd. Believers make up that flock and Jesus is the shepherd.

Jn 17:20-21

"I pray not only for them (the Apostles), but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me."

 

(The apostles) is not part of the verse. Even if it was, Jesus says He is not only praying for them but all who believe through their word.

 

Jn 21:15-17

When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs." He then said to him a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep." He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep."

 

We are all to feed His Sheep. Asking him three times if he loves Him doesn't make Peter anymore important than us who love Him.

 

 

Mt 28: 19

"Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit"

That is a command given to all believers for all time.

Mk 16:16

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Has nothing to do with the Catholic Church. It is a statement of truth.

The Catholic Church and it's dogmas are based on a small number of scriptures taken out of context just like the ones above.

The claim that Jesus established an earthly church to be administered by the apostils and handed down to their successors is just that, a claim with no bases in truth. The apostils were not given any gifts, commands or responsibilities that are not given to all believers.

Most people believe that Christ's Church started at Pentecost with the gift of the Holy Spirit. There were 120 men and women disciples in the room at the time. Only 11 were apostles. They received the same Spirit as the other 109.  

I have made this point in previous posts with no response about how God was not shy about how he wanted the Old Testament/Covenant earthly tabernacle built, outfitted and the priesthood which manned it and their duties. Start reading about Exodus 20:22 and continue on through Leviticus to Numbers 19 for a reminder. It is a little more than changing a person's name.

An excerpt at EX 29 describing an earthly priest and his duties.

 

Aaron and His Sons Consecrated

 ¹ “And this is what you shall do to them to hallow them for ministering to Me as priests: Take one young bull and two rams without blemish, ² and unleavened bread, unleavened cakes mixed with oil, and unleavened wafers anointed with oil (you shall make them of wheat flour). ³ You shall put them in one basket and bring them in the basket, with the bull and the two rams.
⁴ “And Aaron and his sons you shall bring to the door of the tabernacle of meeting, and you shall wash them with water. ⁵ Then you shall take the garments, put the tunic on Aaron, and the robe of the ephod, the ephod, and the breastplate, and gird him with the intricately woven band of the ephod. ⁶ You shall put the turban on his head, and put the holy crown on the turban. ⁷ And you shall take the anointing oil, pour it on his head, and anoint him. ⁸ Then you shall bring his sons and put tunics on them. ⁹ And you shall gird them with sashes, Aaron and his sons, and put the hats on them. The priesthood shall be theirs for a perpetual statute. So you shall consecrate Aaron and his sons.
¹⁰ “You shall also have the bull brought before the tabernacle of meeting, and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands on the head of the bull. ¹¹ Then you shall kill the bull before the LORD, by the door of the tabernacle of meeting. ¹² You shall take some of the blood of the bull and put it on the horns of the altar with your finger, and pour all the blood beside the base of the altar. ¹³ And you shall take all the fat that covers the entrails, the fatty lobe attached to the liver, and the two kidneys and the fat that is on them, and burn them on the altar. ¹⁴ But the flesh of the bull, with its skin and its offal, you shall burn with fire outside the camp. It is a sin offering.
¹⁵ “You shall also take one ram, and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands on the head of the ram; ¹⁶ and you shall kill the ram, and you shall take its blood and sprinkle it all around on the altar. ¹⁷ Then you shall cut the ram in pieces, wash its entrails and its legs, and put them with its pieces and with its head. ¹⁸ And you shall burn the whole ram on the altar. It is a burnt offering to the LORD; it is a sweet aroma, an offering made by fire to the LORD.
¹⁹ “You shall also take the other ram, and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands on the head of the ram. ²⁰ Then you shall kill the ram, and take some of its blood and put it on the tip of the right ear of Aaron and on the tip of the right ear of his sons, on the thumb of their right hand and on the big toe of their right foot, and sprinkle the blood all around on the altar. ²¹ And you shall take some of the blood that is on the altar, and some of the anointing oil, and sprinkle it on Aaron and on his garments, on his sons and on the garments of his sons with him; and he and his garments shall be hallowed, and his sons and his sons’ garments with him.
²² “Also you shall take the fat of the ram, the fat tail, the fat that covers the entrails, the fatty lobe attached to the liver, the two kidneys and the fat on them, the right thigh (for it is a ram of consecration), ²³ one loaf of bread, one cake made with oil, and one wafer from the basket of the unleavened bread that is before the LORD; ²⁴ and you shall put all these in the hands of Aaron and in the hands of his sons, and you shall wave them as a wave offering before the LORD. ²⁵ You shall receive them back from their hands and burn them on the altar as a burnt offering, as a sweet aroma before the LORD. It is an offering made by fire to the LORD.
²⁶ “Then you shall take the breast of the ram of Aaron’s consecration and wave it as a wave offering before the LORD; and it shall be your portion. ²⁷ And from the ram of the consecration you shall consecrate the breast of the wave offering which is waved, and the thigh of the heave offering which is raised, of that which is for Aaron and of that which is for his sons. ²⁸ It shall be from the children of Israel for Aaron and his sons by a statute forever. For it is a heave offering; it shall be a heave offering from the children of Israel from the sacrifices of their peace offerings, that is, their heave offering to the LORD.
²⁹ “And the holy garments of Aaron shall be his sons’ after him, to be anointed in them and to be consecrated in them. ³⁰ That son who becomes priest in his place shall put them on for seven days, when he enters the tabernacle of meeting to minister in the holy place.
³¹ “And you shall take the ram of the consecration and boil its flesh in the holy place. ³² Then Aaron and his sons shall eat the flesh of the ram, and the bread that is in the basket, by the door of the tabernacle of meeting. ³³ They shall eat those things with which the atonement was made, to consecrate and to sanctify them; but an outsider shall not eat them, because they are holy. ³⁴ And if any of the flesh of the consecration offerings, or of the bread, remains until the morning, then you shall burn the remainder with fire. It shall not be eaten, because it is holy.
³⁵ “Thus you shall do to Aaron and his sons, according to all that I have commanded you. Seven days you shall consecrate them. ³⁶ And you shall offer a bull every day as a sin offering for atonement. You shall cleanse the altar when you make atonement for it, and you shall anoint it to sanctify it. ³⁷ Seven days you shall make atonement for the altar and sanctify it. And the altar shall be most holy. Whatever touches the altar must be holy.^[a]

The Daily Offerings

   
³⁸ “Now this is what you shall offer on the altar: two lambs of the first year, day by day continually. ³⁹ One lamb you shall offer in the morning, and the other lamb you shall offer at twilight. ⁴⁰ With the one lamb shall be one-tenth of an ephah of flour mixed with one-fourth of a hin of pressed oil, and one-fourth of a hin of wine as a drink offering. ⁴¹ And the other lamb you shall offer at twilight; and you shall offer with it the grain offering and the drink offering, as in the morning, for a sweet aroma, an offering made by fire to the LORD. ⁴² This shall be a continual burnt offering throughout your generations at the door of the tabernacle of meeting before the LORD, where I will meet you to speak with you. ⁴³ And there I will meet with the children of Israel, and the tabernacle shall be sanctified by My glory. ⁴⁴ So I will consecrate the tabernacle of meeting and the altar. I will also consecrate both Aaron and his sons to minister to Me as priests. ⁴⁵ I will dwell among the children of Israel and will be their God. ⁴⁶ And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, who brought them up out of the land of Egypt, that I may dwell among them. I am the LORD their God.

After seeing God's penchant for detail, could you please show me where He defines an earthly priesthood and the duties He has given those priests for the New Testament/Covenant. His instructions for how a Mass is carried out would be interesting to read.

The only Priest for the New Covenant I can find is Christ and He is in heaven as described in Hebrews. Especially 7-8-9-10. You will also read how the earthly priesthood is no longer needed because there is no need for sacrifices.

Maybe that is why He told us; "Seek yea first the kingdom of heaven." and gave Peter and us the keys to the kingdom of heaven and not an earthly building.

BVB

 

The Catholic Church and it's dogmas are based on a small number of scriptures taken out of context just like the ones above.

The claim that Jesus established an earthly church to be administered by the apostils and handed down to their successors is just that, a claim with no bases in truth. The apostils were not given any gifts, commands or responsibilities that are not given to all believers.

Most people believe that Christ's Church started at Pentecost with the gift of the Holy Spirit. There were 120 men and women disciples in the room at the time. Only 11 were apostles. They received the same Spirit as the other 109.  

I have made this point in previous posts with no response about how God was not shy about how he wanted the Old Testament/Covenant earthly tabernacle built, outfitted and the priesthood which manned it and their duties. Start reading about Exodus 20:22 and continue on through Leviticus to Numbers 19 for a reminder. It is a little more than changing a person's name.

An excerpt at EX 29 describing an earthly priest and his duties.

 

Aaron and His Sons Consecrated

 ¹ “And this is what you shall do to them to hallow them for ministering to Me as priests: Take one young bull and two rams without blemish, ² and unleavened bread, unleavened cakes mixed with oil, and unleavened wafers anointed with oil (you shall make them of wheat flour). ³ You shall put them in one basket and bring them in the basket, with the bull and the two rams.
⁴ “And Aaron and his sons you shall bring to the door of the tabernacle of meeting, and you shall wash them with water. ⁵ Then you shall take the garments, put the tunic on Aaron, and the robe of the ephod, the ephod, and the breastplate, and gird him with the intricately woven band of the ephod. ⁶ You shall put the turban on his head, and put the holy crown on the turban. ⁷ And you shall take the anointing oil, pour it on his head, and anoint him. ⁸ Then you shall bring his sons and put tunics on them. ⁹ And you shall gird them with sashes, Aaron and his sons, and put the hats on them. The priesthood shall be theirs for a perpetual statute. So you shall consecrate Aaron and his sons.
¹⁰ “You shall also have the bull brought before the tabernacle of meeting, and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands on the head of the bull. ¹¹ Then you shall kill the bull before the LORD, by the door of the tabernacle of meeting. ¹² You shall take some of the blood of the bull and put it on the horns of the altar with your finger, and pour all the blood beside the base of the altar. ¹³ And you shall take all the fat that covers the entrails, the fatty lobe attached to the liver, and the two kidneys and the fat that is on them, and burn them on the altar. ¹⁴ But the flesh of the bull, with its skin and its offal, you shall burn with fire outside the camp. It is a sin offering.
¹⁵ “You shall also take one ram, and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands on the head of the ram; ¹⁶ and you shall kill the ram, and you shall take its blood and sprinkle it all around on the altar. ¹⁷ Then you shall cut the ram in pieces, wash its entrails and its legs, and put them with its pieces and with its head. ¹⁸ And you shall burn the whole ram on the altar. It is a burnt offering to the LORD; it is a sweet aroma, an offering made by fire to the LORD.
¹⁹ “You shall also take the other ram, and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands on the head of the ram. ²⁰ Then you shall kill the ram, and take some of its blood and put it on the tip of the right ear of Aaron and on the tip of the right ear of his sons, on the thumb of their right hand and on the big toe of their right foot, and sprinkle the blood all around on the altar. ²¹ And you shall take some of the blood that is on the altar, and some of the anointing oil, and sprinkle it on Aaron and on his garments, on his sons and on the garments of his sons with him; and he and his garments shall be hallowed, and his sons and his sons’ garments with him.
²² “Also you shall take the fat of the ram, the fat tail, the fat that covers the entrails, the fatty lobe attached to the liver, the two kidneys and the fat on them, the right thigh (for it is a ram of consecration), ²³ one loaf of bread, one cake made with oil, and one wafer from the basket of the unleavened bread that is before the LORD; ²⁴ and you shall put all these in the hands of Aaron and in the hands of his sons, and you shall wave them as a wave offering before the LORD. ²⁵ You shall receive them back from their hands and burn them on the altar as a burnt offering, as a sweet aroma before the LORD. It is an offering made by fire to the LORD.
²⁶ “Then you shall take the breast of the ram of Aaron’s consecration and wave it as a wave offering before the LORD; and it shall be your portion. ²⁷ And from the ram of the consecration you shall consecrate the breast of the wave offering which is waved, and the thigh of the heave offering which is raised, of that which is for Aaron and of that which is for his sons. ²⁸ It shall be from the children of Israel for Aaron and his sons by a statute forever. For it is a heave offering; it shall be a heave offering from the children of Israel from the sacrifices of their peace offerings, that is, their heave offering to the LORD.
²⁹ “And the holy garments of Aaron shall be his sons’ after him, to be anointed in them and to be consecrated in them. ³⁰ That son who becomes priest in his place shall put them on for seven days, when he enters the tabernacle of meeting to minister in the holy place.
³¹ “And you shall take the ram of the consecration and boil its flesh in the holy place. ³² Then Aaron and his sons shall eat the flesh of the ram, and the bread that is in the basket, by the door of the tabernacle of meeting. ³³ They shall eat those things with which the atonement was made, to consecrate and to sanctify them; but an outsider shall not eat them, because they are holy. ³⁴ And if any of the flesh of the consecration offerings, or of the bread, remains until the morning, then you shall burn the remainder with fire. It shall not be eaten, because it is holy.
³⁵ “Thus you shall do to Aaron and his sons, according to all that I have commanded you. Seven days you shall consecrate them. ³⁶ And you shall offer a bull every day as a sin offering for atonement. You shall cleanse the altar when you make atonement for it, and you shall anoint it to sanctify it. ³⁷ Seven days you shall make atonement for the altar and sanctify it. And the altar shall be most holy. Whatever touches the altar must be holy.^[a]

The Daily Offerings

   
³⁸ “Now this is what you shall offer on the altar: two lambs of the first year, day by day continually. ³⁹ One lamb you shall offer in the morning, and the other lamb you shall offer at twilight. ⁴⁰ With the one lamb shall be one-tenth of an ephah of flour mixed with one-fourth of a hin of pressed oil, and one-fourth of a hin of wine as a drink offering. ⁴¹ And the other lamb you shall offer at twilight; and you shall offer with it the grain offering and the drink offering, as in the morning, for a sweet aroma, an offering made by fire to the LORD. ⁴² This shall be a continual burnt offering throughout your generations at the door of the tabernacle of meeting before the LORD, where I will meet you to speak with you. ⁴³ And there I will meet with the children of Israel, and the tabernacle shall be sanctified by My glory. ⁴⁴ So I will consecrate the tabernacle of meeting and the altar. I will also consecrate both Aaron and his sons to minister to Me as priests. ⁴⁵ I will dwell among the children of Israel and will be their God. ⁴⁶ And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, who brought them up out of the land of Egypt, that I may dwell among them. I am the LORD their God.

After seeing God's penchant for detail, could you please show me where He defines an earthly priesthood and the duties He has given those priests for the New Testament/Covenant. His instructions for how a Mass is carried out would be interesting to read.

The only Priest for the New Covenant I can find is Christ and He is in heaven as described in Hebrews. Especially 7-8-9-10. You will also read how the earthly priesthood is no longer needed because there is no need for sacrifices.

Maybe that is why He told us; "Seek yea first the kingdom of heaven." and gave Peter and us the keys to the kingdom of heaven and not an earthly building.

BVB

[Petrosius]

Here is one of the passages you'd have abrogated by your interpretation...

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Jesus laid salvation on hearing his word and believing God for eternal life. Nothing there about any Roman hierarchy.

Your view of John 5:24 is incorrect because you are assuming in your argument that our Lord's words only include what your church's tradition teaches is necessary for salvation. Rather Jesus Christ's word encompasses the entire gospel, including those parts that indicate that he did establish an hierarchy in the Church. As for the 72, only the passage from Luke is addressed to them, the others only to the apostles. But even the passage from Luke points out that our Lord did indeed establish a hierarchy in the Church. A full reading of the gospel shows that the Church established by Jesus Christ was not just an undifferentiated mass of disciples. There is a clear hierarchy of Peter/apostles/the 72/disciples. Thus we see in the Church a hierarchy in the New Testament that reflects that established by God in the Old Testament. Nor is this hierarchy limited to the persons of the original Twelve, as I have show by the passage from Acts. Furthermore, we see in St. Paul that this hierarchy was broadened when new churches were established elsewhere:

From Miletus he had the presbyters of the church at Ephesus summoned. When they came to him, he addressed them, "…Keep watch over yourselves and over the whole flock of which the holy Spirit has appointed you overseers, in which you tend the church of God that he acquired with his own blood."
Acts 20:18,19,28

Presbyters who preside well deserve double honor, especially those who toil in preaching and teaching.
1 Tim. 5:17

For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you, on condition that a man be blameless, married only once, with believing children who are not accused of licentiousness or rebellious. For a bishop as God's steward must be blameless, not arrogant, not irritable, not a drunkard, not aggressive, not greedy for sordid gain, but hospitable, a lover of goodness, temperate, just, holy, and self-controlled, holding fast to the true message as taught so that he will be able both to exhort with sound doctrine and to refute opponents.
Titus 1:5-9

We see the role of the presbyter/priest also mentioned by St. Peter

So I exhort the presbyters 2 among you, as a fellow presbyter and witness to the sufferings of Christ and one who has a share in the glory to be revealed. Tend the flock of God in your midst, (overseeing) not by constraint but willingly, as God would have it, not for shameful profit but eagerly. Do not lord it over those assigned to you, but be examples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd is revealed, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. Likewise, you younger members, 5 be subject to the presbyters.
1 Peter 5:1-4

St. James indicates that the presbyters/priests have a unique role in administering the Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick:

Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven.
James 5:14,15 What is playing loose and dangerous with the Scriptures is denying the hierarchy that was established by Jesus Christ himself.

[LiteKeeper]

That is questionable...there is no direct evidence that Peter ever went to Rome, or was considered the first “Pope”.

[LiteKeeper]

The Roman Catholic Church is a hierarchical "denomination" headed by the Pope, who believes that he is an authority over all adherents to his organization. He also believes that if you are not a member of his church, you are not a true member of the church universal.

The "church" universal is headed by Christ Himself, through "overseers" locally. All true believers in Christ are members of His Body, and there is no one human head of the church. The church universal is expressed in many denominations, with many different expressions.

Additionally, there are many who claim to be part of church universal, including some in the Roman Catholic Church, who are not part of the church universal.

[highlander_UW]

Your view of John 5:24 is incorrect because you are assuming in your argument that our Lord's words only include what your church's tradition teaches is necessary for salvation.

We have now arrived at where I knew we would...an impasse because you are guilty of what you accuse me of...interpreting the Bible based upon your church's traditional teaching.

Just for the record, I was raised as a catholic as a child, which led me to becoming an agnostic. In my early 20's God apprehended my heart...so discounting what I'm saying by assuming I'm running by some church's "tradition" is inaccurate...but I'm sure that will make no difference to you.

We are now at a point where you will say I misinterpret scripture and I'll say you do and as we are both convinced neither of us are likely to be swayed by the other's view.

So, that being said, have a most excellent life and may God richly bless you.

[boatbums]

Thank you BVB...they are FAR from babblings!

[narses]

Not responsive. What authority do you cite or claim for your odd point of view?

[LiteKeeper]

'odd point of view'?????

'odd point of view'?????

Can you spell "H-U-B-R-I-S"???

[narses]

“Can you spell “H-U-B-R-I-S”???”

Sure.

“LiteKeeper” who tells others what God really means, even when it contradicts both His Holy Writ and 2,000 years of Inspired Tradition. That spells HUBRIS.

[LiteKeeper]

The Roman Catholic Church can not demonstrate through Scripture alone that it is the only true church. That is what the Reformation was all about.

[Viking83]

That is questionable...there is no direct evidence that Peter ever went to Rome, or was considered the first “Pope”.

Except that St. Peter's Basilica is built on St. Peter's tomb, and that of St. Paul's as well.

Saint Peter's Tomb

[Desdemona]

Except that St. Peter's Basilica is built on St. Peter's tomb, and that of St. Paul's as well.

Begging pardon, but the Basilica of St. Paul Outside the Walls is built over St. Paul's tomb. The current building was constructed in the 19th century over top of the ruins of the original that burned. I was there last summer.