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To: highlander_UW
Here is one of the passages you'd have abrogated by your interpretation...

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Jesus laid salvation on hearing his word and believing God for eternal life. Nothing there about any Roman hierarchy.

Your view of John 5:24 is incorrect because you are assuming in your argument that our Lord's words only include what your church's tradition teaches is necessary for salvation. Rather Jesus Christ's word encompasses the entire gospel, including those parts that indicate that he did establish an hierarchy in the Church. As for the 72, only the passage from Luke is addressed to them, the others only to the apostles. But even the passage from Luke points out that our Lord did indeed establish a hierarchy in the Church. A full reading of the gospel shows that the Church established by Jesus Christ was not just an undifferentiated mass of disciples. There is a clear hierarchy of Peter/apostles/the 72/disciples. Thus we see in the Church a hierarchy in the New Testament that reflects that established by God in the Old Testament. Nor is this hierarchy limited to the persons of the original Twelve, as I have show by the passage from Acts. Furthermore, we see in St. Paul that this hierarchy was broadened when new churches were established elsewhere:

From Miletus he had the presbyters of the church at Ephesus summoned. When they came to him, he addressed them, "…Keep watch over yourselves and over the whole flock of which the holy Spirit has appointed you overseers, in which you tend the church of God that he acquired with his own blood."
Acts 20:18,19,28

Presbyters who preside well deserve double honor, especially those who toil in preaching and teaching.
1 Tim. 5:17

For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you, on condition that a man be blameless, married only once, with believing children who are not accused of licentiousness or rebellious. For a bishop as God's steward must be blameless, not arrogant, not irritable, not a drunkard, not aggressive, not greedy for sordid gain, but hospitable, a lover of goodness, temperate, just, holy, and self-controlled, holding fast to the true message as taught so that he will be able both to exhort with sound doctrine and to refute opponents.
Titus 1:5-9

We see the role of the presbyter/priest also mentioned by St. Peter
So I exhort the presbyters 2 among you, as a fellow presbyter and witness to the sufferings of Christ and one who has a share in the glory to be revealed. Tend the flock of God in your midst, (overseeing) not by constraint but willingly, as God would have it, not for shameful profit but eagerly. Do not lord it over those assigned to you, but be examples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd is revealed, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. Likewise, you younger members, 5 be subject to the presbyters.
1 Peter 5:1-4
St. James indicates that the presbyters/priests have a unique role in administering the Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick:
Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven.
James 5:14,15 What is playing loose and dangerous with the Scriptures is denying the hierarchy that was established by Jesus Christ himself.

30 posted on 02/19/2010 6:10:21 AM PST by Petrosius
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To: Petrosius
Your view of John 5:24 is incorrect because you are assuming in your argument that our Lord's words only include what your church's tradition teaches is necessary for salvation.

We have now arrived at where I knew we would...an impasse because you are guilty of what you accuse me of...interpreting the Bible based upon your church's traditional teaching.

Just for the record, I was raised as a catholic as a child, which led me to becoming an agnostic. In my early 20's God apprehended my heart...so discounting what I'm saying by assuming I'm running by some church's "tradition" is inaccurate...but I'm sure that will make no difference to you.

We are now at a point where you will say I misinterpret scripture and I'll say you do and as we are both convinced neither of us are likely to be swayed by the other's view.

So, that being said, have a most excellent life and may God richly bless you.

33 posted on 02/19/2010 9:38:19 AM PST by highlander_UW (Obama has lost or not saved over 4 million jobs!)
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