Posted on 02/15/2010 9:07:17 AM PST by GonzoII
The first part of the "Hail Mary" is from the Gospel of Luke. The veneration of the saints is written about by the early Church Fathers.
Course that also points out a bigger problem with the foundations of the RCC. How could Peter be the 1st pope for the RCC since he was long dead when it was founded?
Don't go Da Vinci Code on us. The Church was founded by Christ through the Apostles.
Better yet please show the Bible scripture supporting the need for a pope (aka the vicar of Christ)? Do you Catholics even understand what the word vicar means?
Matthew 16
I disagree, but we will never resolve that will we?
I'm curious when the Vatican approved public sightings of Mary began. The earliest I can find is 1531 AD. I believe Pope Liberius claimed to have had a personal sighting in 352 AD. Are the Marian apparitions a recent phenomenon?
Marian apparitions are of apostolic origin.
http://www.marypages.com/OLVvandePilaarEng.htm
Also, the English shrine of the Blessed Virgin Mary is at a place where she appeared during the reign of St. Edward the Confessor, about 5 years before the Norman conquest.
Marian apparitions are of apostolic origin.
Why aren't they written about by the Apostles?
There was no such thing as “Vatican approved” apparition. Authentic apparitions are the realm of the local bishop.
The scriptures you refer to were never intended to become a prayer to Mary.
The church and the saints are pretty clearly Biblically defined AND well before the RCC came into existence too.
BTW vicar means substitute, do you really think anyone can possibly be a substitute for Jesus?
The Bible does not change but the RCC as well as most every mainline christian denomination changes with the culture. Is that not how some liberal sects suceeded in deciding it’s OK to be homosexual?
You either read, revere and follow the Bible yourself, or you blindly let others do it for you. And consequently allow yourselves to be misled on any/all doctrines.
I was under the impression that the Vatican investigates these claims, interviews witnesses, does background checks on those that make the claims and looks at independent evidence. If this is left to the local Bishop it's hard to believe there's not a lot of bias involved.
Again, you’ve missed the point of the verse.
Verse 31 says that his mother and brothers showed up later. Obviously when it says his ‘family’ in verse 21, it’s not referring to his mother or his brothers.
He’s not rebuking them, but addressing the masses and the pharisees, who said he was from Satan in saying that his kin are those who obey the word of their father.
“Heck, if I would have been Pastor Bob, I would have simply said Mary could not have been sinless for scripture clearly teaches that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. And Mary rejoiced in her need for a savior.”
Yes, all have sinned. Does this include Christ?
Is Paul talking about Christ when he says all have sinned and fallen short? Clearly, all, means everyone does it not?
As for Mary, what of the phrase, “blessed art thou amongst women?” Yes, Mary rejoiced in her saviour because it was Christ himself who chose her and redeemed her from sin even at her conception, preserving her from sin for all time.
The bottom line is, "sola scriptura" is of man, not of God.
“The scriptures you refer to were never intended to become a prayer to Mary.”
According to whom? You? Why should we trust your interpretation on the matter? The church fathers interpreted these phrases in the same manner, to acknowledge that Mary was blessed among all women, by Christ and the father for His purposes.
“The church and the saints are pretty clearly Biblically defined AND well before the RCC came into existence too.”
When did the RCC come into existence?
“BTW vicar means substitute, do you really think anyone can possibly be a substitute for Jesus?”
Vicar is simply a representative. Just as the centurion said, I command my servant and it is done. This is how it is with Christ and his servents. They are the vicars of Christ in that he works through them to accomplish his works here on earth.
“The Bible does not change but the RCC as well as most every mainline christian denomination changes with the culture. Is that not how some liberal sects suceeded in deciding it’s OK to be homosexual?”
And how has the RCC changed? Which is your denomination, if I may inquire which has not changed at all?
“You either read, revere and follow the Bible yourself, or you blindly let others do it for you. And consequently allow yourselves to be misled on any/all doctrines.”
Yet, the scripture you hold in your hands today was written by St. Jerome, who is a Catholic saint. How can you elevate the book and ignore the Church which commissioned the work?
You are aware that the bible did not exist in the time of Christ. How then can we rely on the bible by itself?
‘Linguistic literalists need to heed the words of St. Peter:
“As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.” 2 Peter 3:16
Umm....... those words were written in relation to the writings of the Apostle Paul “His epistles” are the epistles of Paul
Jesus is using these terms to mean that those who do the will of God are members of his family. Its not interpretation to posit such a view,its a simple literary and contextual reading of the text.
“Another very simple item that is often over-looked. When did the Catholic church decide on the co-redemptrix role, the hail Mary prayer and her veneration?”
Well first we must understand what co-redemptrix means. Co-redemptrix is no different from co-worker. As she bore Christ into this world, she is the co-redemptrix because she assisted Christ in his work to redeem mankind in the incarnation.
The term originates with St. Irenaeus in the year 200.
“Was it when the church was founded approx 320-330AD - or only recently in the last 2 centuries?”
The church was not founded in 320. Christ founded the church. Why do you believe the RCC was founded in 320? You are aware that the church existed prior to Nicaea?
“How could Peter be the 1st pope for the RCC since he was long dead when it was founded?”
Simply because you are incorrect in asserting that the church was founded in 320.
“Better yet please show the Bible scripture supporting the need for a pope (aka the vicar of Christ)? Do you Catholics even understand what the word vicar means?”
Vicar simply means representative. The use of the terminology with reference to bishops goes back to St. Ignatius who was the Bishop of Antioch as of 80 AD. As the Pope is the Bishop of Rome, he is a Vicar of Christ.
I surmise that you do not properly understand how Catholics employ the term, and that is the source of your error. You need to read the Catechism in order to properly understand our beliefs rather then simply what you believe to be the case.
IMO, it’s holy reverence, not worship.
And I am not contesting this.
All I contest is that he was rebuking his mother and brothers.
John was the disciple whom Jesus loved. Jesus brothers had not come to saving knowledge of faith yet. (John 7:5)
Do you believe Mary was sinless? If so, why would she need a Savior?
All very good points. A question I wondered about is why would Linus be the second Pope while the Apostle John was still living? Doesn't it seem more likely they would have appointed an apostle to serve in Peter's place?
No, the text is clear that Paul set our Lord Jesus apart from the rest of mankind:
As for Mary, what of the phrase, “blessed art thou amongst women?”
Yes, Mary rejoiced in her saviour because it was Christ himself who chose her and redeemed her from sin even at her conception, preserving her from sin for all time.
This is a fairy tale. There is no scriptural evidence for any of this. If God could redeemed Mary from her sin and preserve her from sin from all time, why on earth couldn't He do that for everyone? God shows no partiality.
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