Posted on 02/15/2010 9:07:17 AM PST by GonzoII
The Scenario:
Ever have one of those days when you’re feeling full of energy and vigor? I mean, you’re feeling just obnoxiously happy? Well, this is one of those days.
Driving home from work, you switch on the radio to see what’s happening, and you tune in to a local Protestant radio station just in time to hear a preacher speaking against various Catholic doctrines concerning Mary. The show is called Pastor Bob’s Bible Hour. Pastor Bob proclaims: “Jesus knew Catholics would come along and begin to worship His mother and call her perpetual virgin and absurd things like that. But the Bible says: ‘Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And are not His brethren James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? And are not all of His sisters with us?’ (Matt. 13:55-56a). And isn’t it sad, my brothers and sisters?”
Pastor Bob goes on to say: “Jesus dealt with these Mary worshippers in His day. In Luke 11:27-28, the Bible says, ‘A woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts that You sucked!” But He said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”’”
On a normal day you would probably just listen, take a few mental notes and drive on. But not this time. You’re feeling a little bit too saucy. You take the first exit you see and head for a phone. This is just one more reason why you need to buy that cell phone you’ve been talking about getting.
Step One:
(Excerpt) Read more at envoymagazine.com ...
Study your history and you will find what I say is true. Many Christians wanted to put other books and letters, such as the Episitle of Clement (friend of Paul, mentioned in Philippians 4:3, one of the first popes) and others wanted to leave out books such as Revelation. It was only at the Synod of Hippo in 393 that everyone agreed which books should be included.
The admonistions regarding Scripture had to do with what we now know as the Old Testament. Besides, there are letters of St. Paul’s that are lost, such as the letter to the Laodiceans mentioned in Colossians 4:16.
This is historical fact, which you can find out for yourself with a little bit of study.
The practices are widespread and frequently overlooked by church authorities in the Carribean and Latin America, with a wink and a nod, even in the United States, particularly along the Gulf coast, but in every major city as well. The practitioners of Voodoo and Santeria are Catholic. They pray and make sacrificial offerings to Catholic saints, that they have conflated or “syncretized” with old, African or native, pagan gods. This is factual.
You seem to want to critique the weaknesses of decentralization of authority, in Protestant and independent Christian churches. These weaknesses are certainly present and well-publicized, but also dealt with swiftly almost without exception. Such critics as yourself repeatedly fail to recognize, that error can creep into even your top-down hierarchy. There’s a Biblical passage dealing with this, pertaining to motes and beams.
Cast it out of your church, rather than refusing to deal with it by concealment and denial. No good can come of permitting or even overlooking such a thing, as the recent difficulties in your church with homosexual priests and sexual abuse attest. I’ve long thought your seminaries were deliberately targeted and inflitrated by radicals, myself. Centralization makes this sort of tactic possible.
Again, cast it out. Disallow it, in deed as well as in word. You’ll survive the publicity and come out the better for it. Protestants and independents always have.
If this is what the RCC teaches it's easy to understand why RC's worship Mary. She has been elevated to the role God the Father gave to God the Son.
John 1:12 Yet to all who received Him to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God -
Annalex you were gracious enough to admit way back in the early posts that your church's doctrines & dogma about Mary were based on your church's teachings and tradition not Scripture. Trying to defend these non Scriptural beliefs with Scripture just won't work. Every argument tried has been refuted numerous times. Maybe it's time to also admit RC's worship Mary because they want to and don't care what Scripture says, after all your church does not hold Scripture is the rule of your church.
Thank you, I probably fall into that category more often then not. :-)
Catholics have been evangelizing the world long before the first Protestants came about. Other than an inquisistion, the church has no way to force people, and nations, to rid themselves of idols and beliefs contrary to church doctrine. That is exactly why the Magesterium is so necessary.
It is true that African and Native American cultures used saints to secretly practice their native Pagan rituals. How can you concieve that the Catholic church, who brought the word of God to these parts of the world, and for the most part evangelized these cultures, would be at fault for their pagan origins and influence?
As one astute commentary puts it to 12:1: “A WOMAN. This woman refers to the faithful of Israel through whom the Messiah [i.e. the Christ child vv 2,4-5] came into the world (cf. Ro 9:5). This is indicated not only by the birth of the child, but also by the reference to the sun and the moon (se Ge 37:9-11) and the twelve stars, which would naturally refer to the twelve tribes of Israel.”
Thanks for the reminder.
AH, YOU ARE SUCH A HOOT.
Is that why you hit on me?
in your wildest dreams...you have quite an ego and imagination, LOL.
Ego?
I’m repulsed by your posts.
only in her imagination...
I believe it was said right on this thread that God protected her from sinning ...
Nothing like MOPIOS to confuse them, huh? They have yet to recognize that this is prophetic and hasn’t taken place yet, LOL.
SHHHHH. DON’T CONFUSE THEM WITH FACTS.
Bluster and denial are easier for Catholics to deal with.
As I am by yours...
Mary is not the 2nd eve..that is NOWHERE found in scripture. Christ is the 2nd Adam, Eve was Adams wife not his mother. No where is it said or implied that Mary was the 2nd eve, that she was innocent or sinless. That is doctrine /tradition made up out of whole cloth.
Mary did not have an "innocent nature" because she was not created by God, she was born of a woman.. After the fall men were all born in the image of Adam with a fallen human nature. Now the RC stand is that God removed original sin from her... but that God preserved her from sinning never that she was born innocent..
Adam and Eve were innocent because they had never seen sin or death, those were foreign to them until they sinned.. Mary had seen both so she was not innocent of the effects of sin or the fall..
“Maybe it’s time to also admit RC’s worship Mary because they want to and don’t care what Scripture says...”
Maybe it’s time to admit Catholics don’t worship Mary because they kick people out for worshipping Mary.
Freegards
There is no priesthood in the new church. Greek is very clear on that . There is a word for priest in greek and it is NEVER USED FOR THE NEW CHURCH. That word is "hiereus", the greek word for elder is presbyteros'''. The defination for elder is
2) a term of rank or office a) among the Jews 1) members of the great council or Sanhedrin (because in early times the rulers of the people, judges, etc., were selected from elderly men)
2) of those who in separate cities managed public affairs and administered justice
b) among the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches) The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeably
c) the twenty four members of the heavenly Sanhedrin or court seated on thrones around the throne of God
Elders is a leadership role, not a roll of sacrificer .
You see the scriptural division in passages like this
Mark 15;1And straightway in the morning the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council, and bound Jesus, and carried him away, and delivered him to Pilate.
Young's Literal Translation
Acts 4:5 And it came to pass upon the morrow, there were gathered together of them the rulers, and elders, and scribes, to Jerusalem,
Even the Douay-Rheims Bible does not translate that as priests..
Acts 4:5 And it came to pass on the morrow, that their princes, and ancients, and scribes, were gathered together in Jerusalem;
A poor translation from the greek, but non the less even they did not translate it as priest.
Catholic writer Greg Dues has written Catholic Customs & Traditions, a popular guide (New London: Twenty Third Publications, 2007). On page 166 he states, "Priesthood as we know it in the Catholic church was unheard of during the first generation of Christianity, because at that time priesthood was still associated with animal sacrifices in both the Jewish and pagan religions."
"A clearly defined local leadership in the form of elders, or presbyteroi, became still more important when the original apostles and disciples of Jesus died. The chief elder in each community was often called the episkopos (Greek, 'overseer'). In English this came to be translated as 'bishop' (Latin, episcopus). Ordinarily he presided over the community's Eucharistic assembly."
"When the Eucharist came to be regarded as a sacrifice, the role of the bishop took on a priestly dimension. By the third century bishops were considered priests. Presbyters or elders sometimes substituted for the bishop at the Eucharist. By the end of the third century people all over were using the title 'priest' (hierus in Greek and sacerdos in Latin) for whoever presided at the Eucharist."
She is not identified in the text, it is all metaphor that the Catholic church has split in several pieces to make it fit Mary
If we read the OT, we see that the bride of the Father is Israel, the lineage of the mother of Christ was important because He was to come as the King of Israel so He had to be descended from David.
Jesus fulfills the prophecy to Abraham's ( the father of the jewish people) that in HIS seed all people would be blessed...
So in Rev 12 we see Israel giving birth to the King of Israel , the Savior..look at the symbolism around the woman..the 12 tribes etc..
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