Posted on 01/29/2010 11:55:45 AM PST by Gamecock
Not only does the bible not teach that there are two distinct peoples of God, Israel and the Church, but it is very explicitly opposed to this idea. For one thing, the Church existed in the Old Testament, long before the outpouring of the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost (see Acts 7:38); and furthermore, the clear teaching of the New Testament is that the modern day Church is really just the expansion of God's people Israel. According to Paul, being an Israelite has never been based merely on outward ethnicity (Rom. 2:28-29; 9:6-8); but those who have been called according to God's promise are Abraham's true seed (Rom. 9:8). Hence, all who have faith are Abraham's children, and the true Israel of God (Rom. 4:11-17; Galatians 3:6-9, 26-29; 4:21-31; 6:16; Phil. 3:3; 1 Pet. 2:9-10; Rev. 2:9).
When Paul deals extensively with the whole question of the place of Jews and Gentiles in the people of God, in Romans 11, he shows that there is just one people, symbolized by one good olive tree; unbelieving ethnic Jews may be broken off of that tree of true Israel and believing Gentiles may be grafted in; but there is still one tree, one body, one people of God. Thus, Paul teaches elsewhere that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile in Christ (Gal. 3:26-29; Col. 3:11), but that all believers are members of the same body, citizens of the one commonwealth of Israel, inheritors of all the promises made to Abraham (Eph. 2:11-22; 3:6; Gal. 4:26-31; Phil. 3:20; Heb. 12:22-23). In short, there is and always has been one people of God, and that people includes all those who are grafted in to God's “good olive tree” to become Abraham's children by faith, whether ethnic Jews or Gentiles.
So, you are saying God will save some apart from grace through faith?
This flies in the face of Galatians 2:16 "By the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
Let's try a little logic:
(1) "If thou shalt confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God has raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." (Romans 10:9).
(2) "And so all Israel shall be saved." (Romans 11:26a).
Then, all Israel shall confess with their mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in their hearts that God has raised him from the dead.
So which Israel is that? Paul says in 11:6 "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." He also says in 9:6b "..For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel."
The nation of Israel is not Israel.
Do not try and put false words in my mouth. Nowhere did I say that in my post. The only way ANYONE, Jew or Gentile alike can be saved from their sin is by putting their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and in Him alone. Trusting in His finished work on the cross to save them.
"This flies in the face of Galatians 2:16 "By the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
You create a false premise based upon something I never said and built a straw man. Sorry, not going to play that game. "And so all Israel shall be saved." (Romans 11:26a).
Then, all Israel shall confess with their mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in their hearts that God has raised him from the dead.
So which Israel is that?"
The 1/3 surviving remnant of Israel that will survive the wrath of the Antichrist: Zechariah 13:8-9
"It shall come to pass that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts in it shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left in it. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will test them as gold is tested; they shall call on my name, and I will hear them. I will say, It is my people; and they shall say, The Lord is my God. "
During the tribulation two-thirds of all of the Jews on the face of the earth will be killed, but the one third that remains will all be redeemed by faith in Christ. Thus "All Israel will be saved, yet in the future.
Zechariah 12:1 - 13:1 Details the events surrounding this individual and national salvation of the entire nation of Israel:
The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel. Thus declares the LORD who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him,
“Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that causes reeling to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah.
“It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely injured. And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it.
“In that day,” declares the LORD, “I will strike every horse with bewilderment and his rider with madness. But I will watch over the house of Judah, while I strike every horse of the peoples with blindness.
“Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘A strong support for us are the inhabitants of Jerusalem through the LORD of hosts, their God.’
“In that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot among pieces of wood and a flaming torch among sheaves, so they will consume on the right hand and on the left all the surrounding peoples, while the inhabitants of Jerusalem again dwell on their own sites in Jerusalem.
“The LORD also will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem will not be magnified above Judah.
“In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the LORD before them.
“And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
“I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.
“In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo.
“The land will mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves;
the family of the house of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself and their wives by themselves;
all the families that remain, every family by itself and their wives by themselves.
“In that day a fountain will be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for impurity.
This is Reformed thought and I am posting it for those who are interested in what Reformed Christians believe.
Why do you ask?
“This is Reformed thought and I am posting it for those who are interested in what Reformed Christians believe.Why do you ask?”
It seems to be written by someone who is unfamiliar with the totality of Scripture. It is more provocative than accurate.
I wondered why you were posting it.
Thanks.
best,
ampu
“It seems to be written by someone who is unfamiliar with the totality of Scripture. It is more provocative than accurate.”
Care to demonstrate?
We just finished a course on this in seminary.Its amazing how the patience of God prevails down through history as he progressively unfolds his covenant to his people.From one man, to a family,to a nation,to a people, called from every corner of the earth. Culminating in the incarnation of the one who perfectly fulfills the covenant or works and the covenant of grace. Hallelujah! What a savior!
This is a good easy to understand work on the subject.
Looks great. On my wish list.
Be careful letting be known that you attend WTS.
Some around here will accuse you of worshiping Machen,
It might be the same tree, but He still has the latitude to treat different branches in different fashions. Israel is discernible from the Gentiles in Prophecy and some unconditional covenants have been made with that branch still yet unfulfilled.
If one throws out dispensational beliefs as heresy, then reformed theology also gets thrown out as heresy, because dispensational soteriology is based upon reformed soteriological doctrine.
If reformed soteriological doctrine is thrown out as heresy for not placing the Catholic Church first, then Catholic doctrine is heretical for placing faith in authority and power prior to faith alone in Christ alone.
On the other hand, it is possible to be a believer in Christ, part of the body of Christ, by thinking in belief through faith in Christ, in any environment, and still build doctrine upon doctrine by remaining faithful through Him in what He provides.
This flies in the face of Galatians 2:16 "By the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
Let's try a little logic:
Now, let's try a little faith. Israel returns to the land twice, one in disbelief and the second time in belief. It is fairly easily identified that Israel today has returned to the land, part of it, but not through faith in Christ.
When the AntiChrist is revealed, it is likely that will be the time when Israel comes back together, and in faith in Christ, recognizing Him as the Messiah. If the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit, then when the Restrainer is removed, concurrently allowing the AntiChrist to be revealed and ending the Church Age, there still are a remnant of those who will believe in God through faith in Christ on their own volition.
By God's Sovereignty, they won't be indwelt any longer, nor received that initial indwelling by Him, but they would still be believers through faith in Christ in their souls.
Those who persevere, shall still be saved and provided for by Christ.
There also remains a Millennial reign in which Israel will have their hearts and minds regenerated and written with the Word of God.
The discernment of Israel and the Church does nothing to diminsh either, but rather glorifies His Son and manifests the truthfulness, glory, grace, and trustworthiness of His Word, given and sworn upon by Himself in His Covenants.
I don’t actually attend WTS ( the fees as astronomical). I do however hold in high esteem mssrs Machen, Murray, Stonehouse etc :)
Which unfulfilled covenants would they be?
“Care to demonstrate?
Not really. It is my opinion that it is somewhat shallow and short on exposition to make its case, which I believe it fails to make.
I learned a long time ago that you can’t argue someone into a Biblical belief. I don’t intend to change your mind. I was just inquiring as to why it was posted, other than flame bait.
best,
ampu
If the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit, then when the Restrainer is removed,... there still are a remnant of those who will believe in God through faith in Christ on their own volition.
Ummmm, say what?! The Holy Spirit is removed, and yet people come to faith? All on their own?
How's that supposed to work?
If one throws out dispensational beliefs as heresy, then reformed theology also gets thrown out as heresy, because dispensational soteriology is based upon reformed soteriological doctrine.
Can you please explicate dispensational soteriology.
What I see, and don't take this the wrong way, is dispensationalists finding it necessary to say some very odd things about salvation in order to preserve the distinctives of their system.
For no particularly good reason other than to preserve the Church/Israel distinction, the whole thing becomes a complicated Rube Goldberg machine. That's not a good sign.
In the same fashion that OT believers came to faith in Him. Their believing is also dependent upon their will.
I’m not asking you to try to change my mind but just to substantiate your claim.
Nothing is added. Faith alone in Christ alone is all that is necessary for the unbeliever to come to a saving faith in Christ. Once saved, always saved with respect to eternal life.
Now just as the entire world is redeemed from Christ’s work on the Cross, the unbeliever is still in a state of condemnation until his human spirit is regenerated, but even after that regeneration, our souls are still scarred from sin and its consequences prior and after regeneration.
There is a second system of salvation ongoing, after eternal life in the spirit, namely the sanctification of the soul which also is a work of God the Holy Spirit.
The issues of sanctification, redemption, justification, propitiation, reconciliation, and regeneration are all well established in Reformed theology.
Dispensationalism tends to reinforce the doctrine of unlimited atonement, because Christ redeemed the sins of the whole world, and not merely the sins of the elect, however salvation in terms of eternal life still doesn’t occur until the condemned unbeliever comes to an initial saving faith alone in Christ alone.
thanks for the interest, streetpreacher, but I don’t feel any compulsion to post on a flame bait thread about reformed versus dispensational theology. I don’t care which you favor - or if you favor neither. “Let each man be convinced in his own mind.”
All I said was that I found it to be shallow and poorly written. That is my opinion and you can agree or disagree with it as you wish. Again, I’m happy with either way you decide.
best,
ampu
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