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To: drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; jboot; AZhardliner; ...

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3 posted on 01/23/2010 7:08:36 AM PST by Gamecock (We always have reasons for doing what we do.)
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To: Gamecock
Theological FAQ: Does the bible teach a pre-tribulational rapture?

No. The order of events, as listed by Jesus in Matthew, is 1. life as usual (marriage, international strife, geological events, persecution of believers) 2. until a great and completely unprecedented tribulation, 3. the sun and the moon not giving their light and stars falling from the sky, 4. his appearance in the sky visible to all inhabitants of the earth, 5. the sound of a trumpet and the rooting out of the children of the evil one from amongst the children of the kingdom (Matthew 13), followed by 6. the gathering by his angels throughout the earth of his elect. Inasmuch as 1-5 precede 6, there is no pre-tribulation rapture taught by Jesus (or anyone else in the Bible).

To review what another poster here at FR said and a more detailed, referenced response:
The rapture of the church, the body of Christ, must precede the tribulation in order that all of God's Word be fulfilled.

Uh huh, or, as Jesus said, (numbers here to show temporal succession--that means, what happens first, then second, then third, and so on) to quote him at length from Matthew 24 before summarizing:
"For then shall be (1) great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.* For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Immediately (2) after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the (3) Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and (4) they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
--Matthew 24
To recap:
1. ...then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

2. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened...

3. ...then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

4. ...he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,

5. and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Now let's boil it down a bit more so we don't get lost in all the words:
1. Great tribulation such as has never been seen or will be seen.
2. Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven, seen by everyone on earth.
3. Sound of trumpet and
4. angels collecting elect throughout the earth.
And now again:
1. Great tribulation.
2. Jesus returns.
3. Trumpet sounded. (see 1 Corinthians 15:52).
4. Angels sent.
5. Believers gathered. (see 1 Corinthians 15:23)
Compare it with your statement above: The rapture of the church, the body of Christ, must precede the tribulation in order that all of God's Word be fulfilled.

According to Jesus's own word (such as Paul claimed), you've got events exactly backwards.

*Of the ten best known, born-again evangelists in the world, at this time, all without exception (to our knowledge) are convinced by God’s Word that the Rapture will come before the Antichrist is revealed and the Tribulation begins.

One could make a good case from Jesus's own description of rumors of a secret limited return (he's here or he's there or he's out here in a desert location or he's in here in the secret chamber or the more recent "Hey, Jesus is going to come back secretly before the tribulation and antichrist and whisk all the believers away and those who are left will be wondering where they all went." ) that the so-called secret pre-trib rapture is one of those doctrines of the false Christs and false prophets that Jesus warned us about.
14 posted on 01/23/2010 7:53:55 AM PST by aruanan
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To: Gamecock
Dear Brother in Christ, What grieves me most about these discussions is that folks are put out of fellowship by them. Even though I have wondered over the scriptures regarding these issues and have never made my thoughts know, I have been degraded for not taking the Preterrist or non-tribulation line.

I've been tested by folks in the church regarding these issues and say that I am still studying the scriptures, having not made up my mind. Rather than being loving with the scriptures, folks are insistent and even pestering about it.

All I can say is that I can't wait to see Christ face to face and be fully known. The joy of His love is enough for me and to share with all who will listen about what He has done on the Cross for folks like us.

To be excluded from the kindness of fellowship for not taking a position on Preterism or Rapture is grievous to me.

31 posted on 01/23/2010 10:52:23 AM PST by sr4402
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