I ask you what you believe and how I can find the happiness and joy you have in your life.
I would tell them to avoid Utah, at all costs!
Posted on 12/28/2009 11:26:45 AM PST by urroner
For the sake of a discussion, let's assume that I am a brand new neighbor of yours. We have only met each other in passing. You play the part of the Christian and I will play the part of the agnostic. (BTW, none of the below is true about me. Upfront, I am Mormon, but I have tried to get into this discussion on this forum for some time, but haven't been able to do so.)
(I also realize that there are some of you who are more than eager to post anti-Mormon material on this thread and I request that you don't do so. I don't even want Mormonism mentioned in this thread beyond this point.)
Let's assume that I'm out trimming the hedges between your house and mine and that you are working in a garden close to the hedges.
My wife and three kids, ages 3, 8, and 13, are all out with me. My wife keeps telling me I need to paint the house before it gets colder, my younger children are throwing little rocks at me to get my attention and laughing and giggling, and the oldest is pestering me about buying her a cellphone and about the promise I made a year ago about letting her pierce her ears for earrings.
In a calm moment, my wife and I get into a neighborly chat, well would be my wife, I'm a science/math teacher at the local community college and it's very hard for me to just sit down and chitchat and you tell us you are Christian.
My wife tells you she is a Christian also, but doesn't go to any denomination and hasn't been to church in several years, since marrying me, but that I am always peppering her with questions that she doesn't know the answers to. She says that one of the reasons she has stopped going to church is because she likes to spend Sundays with me since we don't get a lot of lone time together. I spend a lot of time helping students at the college and when I'm home, I have to spend a lot of time with the kids. We do have a date night every week, but that's just not enough.
She also says that she is also tired of seeing so much hypocrisy among the church members and the preacher is always asking for money, that she had decided to stop going. She says that her preacher, when she was little, told her she was saved as did her parents, so her salvation was guaranteed.
You see me roll my eyes when my wife says that.
I tell you that I really don't go to any denomination, but I have read the Bible, the Koran, the Tao Te Ching, the Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, some of the writings of Marx, and some New Age books. I tell you that I don't know what the right way is or even if there is a right way?
I tell you that I tend toward Uniterianism, but Buddhism has some attraction to me also, but it's a little too esoteric for me. I tell you that I also have some problems with life after death, reincarnation, or any supernatural miracles.
I tell you my parents were Catholics before they died, but they died when I was very young and I have been to church only a couple of times since their funeral, but the people who adopted me were strong agnostics and never directed me to follow any particular path. I'm thinking about going back to the RCC, but haven't made any decision yet.
You realize that I am fairly knowledgeable of the Bible when it comes to knowing where what is, but you realize that I don't interpret them at all as you do. In fact, I have a very shallow understanding of them. I think the Bible is good literature and can help a person do a lot of good in this life, but I don't know anything about being saved and what that means.
I ask you what you believe and how I can find the happiness and joy you have in your life.
What are you going to say or do?
You said you don’t want to talk about the truth of mormonism.
__________________________________________
Sounds mormon to me...
Questions put to Joseph Smith: “’Do you believe the Bible?’ [Smith:]’If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do’. When asked ‘Will everybody be damned, but Mormons’? [Smith replied] ‘Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness.”
President Wilford Woodruff stated: “the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called”
Again, what is “eternal life?” What does it mean “to know the only true God, and Jesus Christ?”
To all:
I was honest upfront about being Mormon and I said that I don’t want to discuss Mormonism in this thread, but it seems that there are some who insist upon doing it. I don’t know why.
I created this thread so I can see why traditional/mainstream Christians believe what they believe. I have no problem with somebody saying “That is what I believe simply because that is what I believe.”, but it does because somewhat skeptical if honest questions are derided and purposefully avoided. I have asked in other threads “Why do you believe this.” and all I got were anti-Mormon responses and people telling me that I shouldn’t ask such questions.
I haven’t derided anybody’s belief on this thread nor will I. I haven’t said “Hey, you’re wrong” to anybody yet nor will I. If somebody says “ This is what I believe” or “You need to do this, I will probably simply ask them a “why” question.
For example, when people tell me I have to believe like them, I ask them why. Is there anything wrong with that? Apparently to some there is something very wrong with asking simple “why” questions. Why should I simply believe anything somebody just tells me?
In other threads, I have asked people to let their lights shine out from under the bushel, but I haven’t seen any of that, I have only had people telling me that I’m wrong. I don’t want to know why I am wrong, I have heard just about every anti-Mormon statement, so showing it to me again won’t do any good. What I want to know is why you are right, so this is why I started this thread.
Is it wrong for me to do so, to ask why you believe the way you do? Is it wrong to let you light from out from under the bushel so I can see it?
I’m going to do something I should have done right from the start, I’m going to tell you a true story.
I was born and raised Mormon - six generations worth. I grew up in the belief that Jesus Christ was my older spirit brother, one of God’s children - just like me. I was raised with the understanding that God sent me to earth as a test so that I could earn my way back to him and thereby “prove” my worthiness to become a wife of a god in eternity.
Years of trying and trying, left me tired, hopeless and lacking peace. As a young girl I remember feeling the love of Christ and knew that my Heavenly Father knew what was in my heart - my heart was wicked! No matter how hard I tried, I knew that I was evil and sinful.
Eventually I quit believing in the Mormon kind of man-god that constantly tests and judges you. I became agnostic. However there was this huge, gaping, empty hole in my being - it yawned dark and wide. My life without God was empty, self-involved, stressful, sordid and ugly. I crossed paths with a few Christians - they seemed like nice people, but I concluded they were as deluded as the Mormons. Eventually I decided I would end my life - I didn’t really believe in God, so what did it matter? No one seemed to really care about me anyway.
Committing suicide is hard. I had a plan, a time and a place, but when it came down to it, I was just scared and alone. Tears streamed down my face and I fell to my knees before the heavens in prayer to a God I didn’t even know. I decided I would try one thing I had never thought of trying. I went to a Christian Church. It didn’t really matter what denomination - it was a “Bible” Church.
Those good people actually took me in their arms and spoke of a God who loved me enough to die for me. I was resistant to their message, but interested enough to keep going back.
#1. God cannot abide sin. He cannot stand it, nor be in its presence.
#2. No matter how hard you try, you WILL sin - yep, even you, urroner.
#3. the constant struggle against sin that pits your own strength against your own weakness will only lead to death (or a life with no joy)
#4. God loves you and as proof, he died for you. Christ died on the cross - a living sacrifice for you - even while you were still sinful (remember sacrifices in the Old Testament? They were a shadow of Christ’s sacrifice)
#5. Do you believe he died for your sin? If you did, would it free you from your own preoccupation with your works at being perfect?
#6. If you believe Christ paid the penalty for your sins, would you love Him? Would you trust Him? Would you live your life in worship of a God that set you free?
The first step in understanding God, is acknowledging how much you offend God every single day. Read the Bible - don’t even go to a Church if your think a certain denomination is the answer. The answer is Christ. Find Him and He will guide you where He wants you to go. I promise.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that they believe your Church is wrong, your Christian creeds are abomination to God, and you pastor or Priest is a hireling of Satan.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that there is salvation only in their church - all others are wrong.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that those who have been through their temples are wearing secret underwear to protect themselves from “evil”. This “evil” includes non - Mormons like you.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU about their secret temple rites at all. If they did, you would spot them as non Christians immediately.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that they think “familiar spirits” are good, and that their Book of Mormon has a “familiar spirit”. Leviticus 19:31 says familiar spirits defile one, and are to be avoided at all costs.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that women receive salvation only through their Mormon husbands, and must remain pregnant for all eternity.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that they intend to be gods themselves some day, and are helping to earn their exaltation to godhood by talking to you.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that they intend to have many wives in heaven, carrying on multiple sex relations throughout eternity, until they have enough children to populate their own earth, so they can be “Heavenly Father” over their own planet!
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that you were once a spirit - child of their heavenly father, and one of his numerous wives before you were born on earth.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that the Virgin Mary really wasn’t a virgin at all but had sex relations with their heavenly father to produce the Mormon version of Jesus Christ
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that they believe Jesus had at least three wives and children while he was on this earth.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that the “heavenly father” they ask you to pray to with them, is really an exalted man that lives on a planet near the star base Kolob, and is not the Heavenly Father of the Bible at all.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that Jesus was really Lucifer’s brother in the spirit world, and it was only due to a “heavenly council” vote that Jesus became our redeemer instead of Satan!!
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that there are over one hundred divisions in Mormonism. They conveniently “forget” this while criticizing the many denominations within the body of Christ
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that all their so- called scriptures such as the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, and even their official “Mormon Doctrine” statements contradict each other on MAJOR doctrinal points. The King James Bible is likewise contradicted.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that the reason the Book of Mormon has no maps is because there is not one scrap of archaeological evidence to support it!
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that the state of Utah, which is predominately Mormon, has a higher than the national average of wife-beating, child abuse, and teenage suicide.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that their prophet Joseph Smith was heavily involved in the occult when he founded Mormonism.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that that they encourage visitations from dead relatives from the “spirit world”, a practice forbidden in the Bible. (Deuteronomy 18:10-12.)
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that there are many accounts of Joseph Smith’s first vision besides the one they present to you, and all are different
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that their secret temple oaths are based on the Scottish Rite Masons.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that before 1978 they considered the Negro race inferior, and even one drop of Negro blood prevented a person from entering their priesthood.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that they expect Christ to return to their temple in Missouri, but they haven’t built the temple He’s supposed to return to, because they don’t own the property. (It is owned by the “Temple Lot Mormons” who have plans of their own, and won’t let the Salt Lake City group buy it).
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that they consider the Bible to be untrustworthy and full of errors.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that Jesus’ death on the cross only partially saves the believer.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that that according to Anton Lavey’s Satanic Bible, the demon god of the living dead is called “Mormo”. Is it just a coincidence that the Mormons are so concerned with the dead?
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that on their Salt Lake City Temple they prominently display an upside-down star which is a Satanic symbol known as the Goat’s head. Why?
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that they believe the Archangel Michael came down to earth with several of his celestial wives, and became Adam in the garden of Eden.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that that they believe the angel Gabriel came down to earth and became Noah in the days of the flood.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that their Prophet Joseph Smith prophesied falsely many times. For example, he foretold the second coming of Christ for 1891. The Bible teaches that one false prophecy puts the prophet under death sentence. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22).
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that their Prophet Joseph Smith did not die as a martyr as they claim, but was killed during a gun battle in which he himself killed two men and wounded a third.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU about the Mountain Meadows Massacre in which they brutally murdered an innocent wagon train of settlers, of over one hundred men, women, and most of the children, traveling through Utah.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that Joseph Smith taught that there were inhabitants on the moon, and Brigham Young taught there were inhabitants on the sun as well!
WHY WON’T MORMONS TELL YOU THESE THINGS?
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the Mormons, are well aware that if these facts were known to the convert prior to baptism, they would have very few converts! The Missionaries are well trained to keep most of these facts from their potential converts.
Tragically, many Mormons may not even be fully aware of the doctrines and history of their own church. Every statement on this tract is true. Mormons are encouraged to check out their own publications for documentation of the above.
After all, if the Mormon Church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) has the truth, it can stand any amount of investigation.
Amen, I am in total agreement with you ...
my reply to you was in jest. However, there are evidences for the biblical citations you mentioned. Am on my phone and cannot cite as needed at the moment. Proof of God? That is an entirely different matter. A matter of the soul and heart and what is written upon it. A wise person wrote a good answer to that when he penned; “The fool has said in his heart ‘there is no God’”. But Someone else made a better argument in Romans chapter one. peace =)
The mormons need Joey Smith to let them into the mormon afterlife…
...and does sit in judgment on us according to Brigham Young and others who tells us he must “certify” us into glory”
Second President Brigham Young once remarked,
“I know that Joseph Smith is a Prophet of God, that this is the Gospel of salvation, and if you do not believe it you will be damned, every one of you”
(Journal of Discourses 4:298, March 29, 1857).
On October 9, 1859, Young said,
“From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are — I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent”
(Journal of Discourses 7:289).
“He (Joseph Smith) is the man through whom God has spoken... yet I would not like to call him a savior, though in a certain capacity he was a god to us, and is to the nations of the earth, and will continue to be.”
- Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:321
“You call us fools; but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a god...”
- Herber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses 5:88
“If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]”
- (as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142)
There is “no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God”
- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190
“I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, “Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;” if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again.”
- Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155
“It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men.... If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,”
- Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670
...to get by Joseph Smith...
“They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.
He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.
He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.
As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.
Who has made this so?
Have I?
Have this people?
Have the world?
No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.
If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.
If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.
Can you pass without his inspection?
No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.
In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.
They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?
They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?
“If I ever pass into heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of Prophet Joseph”
—Brigham Young
—JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224
Joseph Smith is the savior of the Mormons
“He (Joseph Smith) is the man through whom God has spoken... yet I would not like to call him a savior, though in a certain capacity he was a god to us, and is to the nations of the earth, and will continue to be.”
- Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:321
“You call us fools; but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a god...”
- Herber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses 5:88
“If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]”
- (as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142)
There is “no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God”
- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190
“I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, “Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;” if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again.”
- Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155
“It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men.... If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,”
- Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670
It's not even wrong to go from thread to thread on the Religion Forum playing little games, however the Religion Moderator may not appreciate it.
Josephus lived during and just after the time of Christ. He didn’t see the events that occurred in OT times. He recorded what he was taught, what he believed, and what he personally saw, nothing else and he wasn’t an eye-witness to any of the happenings in the OT.
(In my role as the agnostic)If Jesus did exist and performed all those miracles, why didn’t Josephus mention him more often?
IBTZ
I ask you what you believe and how I can find the happiness and joy you have in your life.
I would tell them to avoid Utah, at all costs!
“I was honest upfront about being Mormon and I said that I don’t want to discuss Mormonism in this thread, but it seems that there are some who insist upon doing it. I don’t know why.
Honest is the last thing your post is.
My understanding of posting on FR is that you can start a thread, but people can discuss and post what they decide to.
In your case, you identified yourself as a follower of Joseph Smith, treasure seeker, horndog and false prophet.
Great. If you are seeking truth, why start with a man who was vile and dishonest??
best,
ampu
I'd tell you Jesus lived the perfect life I was suppose to live, died for my sins the death I was supposed to die, and arose from the dead to give me new life in him and now I don't need to worry about working my way to eternal life because I trust that Jesus accomplished that for me.
Why would He create imperfection?
What sort of imperfection? The creation works in wondrous ways. If you are speaking of sin as an imperfection, the answer lies within man's own choices. Man chose to sin, to commit murder, adultery, etc.
Why would He create beings that He knew would spend an eternity rotting and being tormented in Hell when He didn't’t have to? How does God choose who goes to Heaven and who to goes to Hell?
Each man, himself, chooses hell or he chooses redemption and heaven. God prefers that we all choose heaven.
What is God’s purpose? Does He even have a purpose? Why did God even create us? Does we fulfill some emotional lack that He has or provide Him some necessary external stimulation? What is the purpose of life if it’s not necessary for it for God to decide whether we go to Heaven or to Hell? Why did He create us in this life when He already knows our final destination? Why would God want to punish somebody forever? Does He get pleasure out of it? If God created everything, why did He create evil?
God gave us all free will, we are not puppets and yes, I believe God created man because He was lonely. Again, God does not send anyone to hell and God did not create evil. Both are chosen by men through their own free will.
(Remember, I am a logical agnostic and these are some of the questions I have been asking my wife and she doesn’t know the answer to them. I would like a logical answer, but if there is none, then there isn’t any, but I would like to be told that.)
I don't know what I would say to you over that hedge. Perhaps I would just say read the bible once again with an open heart - perhaps a prayer (even one that says God, I don't believe, so help me believe"). I actually think you want the answer, but it can't be given over a hedge. Just ask God every day to help you understand - He'll answer the true seeker of truth.
"Josiah Stowell, a Mormonite, being sworn, testified that he positively knew that said Smith never had lied to, or deceived him, and did not believe he ever tried to deceive any body else. The following questions were then asked him, to which he made the replies annexed.Did Smith ever tell you there was money hid in a certain glass which he mentioned?
Yes.
Did he tell you, you could find it by digging?
Yes.
Did you dig?
Yes.
Did you find any money?
No.
Did he not lie to you then, and deceive you?
No! the money was there, but we did not get quite to it!
How do you know it was there?
Smith said it was!
Addison Austin was next called upon, who testified, that at the very same time that Stowell was digging for money, he, Austin, was in company with said Smith alone, and asked him to tell him honestly whether he could see this money or not.
Smith hesitated some time, but finally replied, "to be candid, between you and me, I cannot, any more than you or any body else; but any way to get a living."
Here, then, we have his own confession, that he was a vile, dishonest impostor.
As regards the testimony of Josiah Stowell, it needs no comment. He swears positively that Smith did not lie to him. So much for a Mormon witness."
WOW.
Please see the link to my 93. I didn’t see your heart wrenching story until after my post.
katlynne11 said:
“What is the arguement for for Monotheism, monism, pantheism, atheism? There is much evidence for concluding this is a theistic universe, created by a transendent God, who is not part of the universe. Once you determine that this is a Monotheistic universe, a rational, reasonable universe. That leaves you with a Single, Most High God. That leaves you with Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Now what is the evidence for determining which is correct? There is a little thing called the resurrection which proves Christian theology. No other religious figure ever predicted his death, burial, and resurrection.”
The agnostic:
What is the evidence that this is a theistic universe created by a transcendent God who is not part of the universe? Why couldn’t it be simply created without the intervention of a transcendent God?
When it comes to the prophecy of the resurrection of Christ, what evidence do you have that Christ was really resurrected and that there were any prophecy made before he was resurrected and that these “prophecies” were not just included in the writings of the Gospel writers?
Why should it have to square with scripture? As an agnostic, I don’t know if the Bible is the word of God or not.
Josephus lived during and just after the time of Christ. He didn’t see the events that occurred in OT times. He recorded what he was taught, what he believed, and what he personally saw, nothing else and he wasn’t an eye-witness to any of the happenings in the OT.
_________________________________________________
Joey Smith didnt live before 1805...
“he wasn’t an eye-witness to any of the happenings in the OT.”
“he wasn’t an eye-witness to any of the happenings in the” NT of Jesus..
“he wasn’t an eye-witness to any of the happenings in the” bom...
But that doesnt seem to get in the way of mormons believing him when he writes about events that he claims happened 2000 years before that time...
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