Posted on 12/08/2009 11:41:52 AM PST by Gamecock
I just came from a funeral service for an aunt of mine who was a staunch Catholic. I came out of that religion about 25 years ago after reading for myself what the Bible had to say. My question surrounds the actuality of salvation for all the millions who still practice Mary worship and so forth. Knowing that one cannot serve two masters, I wonder at how it is possible that the aforementioned can really experience Christ in a saving way, while they continue to believe that the church of Rome is solely responsible for their eternal welfare.
Answer:
Greetings in Christ Jesus our Lord and only Savior. Thank you for your question.
Unless a person is clearly outside the pale of the Christian faith, I do not believe that you can judge the "actuality" or "reality" of someone's salvation. You may judge the "credibility" of their faith; or you may question the "probability" of someone's salvation. You may also ask, as you have done, "how it is possible that the aforementioned can really experience Christ in a saving way."
None of us, however, can truly say that we are perfect in knowledge or practice. We are always growing both in wisdom and in the grace of God. Is it possible for someone who prays to Mary to be a true Christian? In other words, can someone who is truly saved be in error on such an issue?
Conscious compromise of God's truth can be serious and deadly, but we also see from Scripture that in his mercy God may (and does) choose to accept less than perfect understanding and obedience, even of his own people. (Indeed, isn't the salvation and the perseverance of the saints dependent upon that fact?) There will be growth in understanding and holiness, but perfection must await our going to be with Jesus or His return to take us unto himself (see 1 John 3:2).
In the Old Testament, consider Asa in 1 Kings 15. He removed the idols from the land, but he allowed the high places to remain. The high places were clearly unacceptable. But the text states that Asa was loyal to the Lord his entire life. How could this be? Had he not seriously compromised?
What about the New Testament? Consider the Corinthians. Was the church at Corinth an exemplary church? Did they not have many doctrinal problems, e.g., concerning the Lord's Supper and the doctrine of the resurrection? (See 1 Cor. 11 and 1 Cor. 15.) Did even the apostles fully understand? Even though what they wrote was protected from error, did they not grow and mature in their own understanding and obedience? Wasn't it necessary at one point, for instance, for Paul to rebuke Peter for his inconsistency? (See Gal. 2.)
My point is not to defend the doctrinal aberrations of Rome. I do not believe such is possible. I think, however, that people generally follow their leaders. They learn from them; they consider their arguments rational and coherent.
For example, consider devotion to Mary. I read Jarislov Pellikan's Mary Through the Centuries and I cannot get past page 10 before I am wondering why the author is so blind to the fallacies of his arguments. However, if I were not being so critical and I were already predisposed to the position, then his arguments would perhaps seem irrefutable. So then, we should boldly, patiently, and compassionately discuss these matters with our loved ones, praying that the Holy Spirit will grant them more understanding.
Whatever we may judge in terms of the "actuality" or "probability" or "possibility" of a person's salvation at the end of life is, in the end, academic, for God is the one who can look at the heart and only he can truly judge. (He is the One, in fact, who has chosen his elect.) "It is appointed to man once to die, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27), but "Today is the day of salvation" (Heb. 3:13). We should work, therefore, the works of him who sent us while it is light and point our neighbors and loved ones to Christ.
For myself, I too was a Roman Catholic. In the past six months, I have attended the funeral of two uncles and one aunt whom I loved very much. I had opportunity at each funeral to speak a word of testimony regarding the Savior. I stood in the pulpit of the church in which I had served mass as a young boy and in my eulogies spoke of my faith in Christ.
Was it as detailed as I wish it could have been? No, but I am thankful for the opportunity God gave. Do I believe that my family members went to heaven? For one I have hope; for the others, I have little hope. Upon what is my hope based? It is always and only grounded in Christ and the Gospel.
We may define Christianity broadly by including as Christians all who confess the Apostles' Creed. We may define Christianity narrowly by including as Christians only those who confess our particular denominational creed. We need to exercise care, because, if we are too narrow, we may find ourselves excluding someone like Augustine. On the other hand, if we are too broad, we may find ourselves including many who should be excluded.
Personally, therefore, I do not judge. I have either greater or lesser hope. For example, I have greater hope for my Roman Catholic family members who ignorantly follow their leaders without thinking. Many times I find these to be at least open to discussion regarding the Gospel. However, I have lesser hope for people who are self-consciously Roman Catholic; that is, they understand the issues yet continue in the way of the Papacy.
I recommend that you read the book Come out from among Them by John Calvin. I found it very helpful and it addresses somewhat the question that you have raised.
I hope that my answer helps. You are free to write for clarification. May our Lord bless you.
And those apsstles were given the Sacrament of Orders by Jesus Christ himself.
“Receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven them; whose sins you hold bound are held bound.”
“Go, therefore, baptizing all in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”
Romans 14:4
Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
The bible is the answer. If you haven’t read it (and most Christians have not) you are uninformed about your own religion.
Do not use potty language - or references to potty language - on the Religion Forum.
The question of course is, by what authority can this church pose the question, much less give a response.
Good, balanced article.
If you trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, you will be saved, even if you hold some false doctrines. I’m all in favor of sound doctrine, but it’s Christ who saves us, and not the soundness of our doctrine.
Thank you for posting “How old is your Church”!! It just amazes me that Protestants DENY THESE FACTS.
48. Let all, therefore, try to approach with greater trust the throne of grace and mercy of our Queen and Mother, and beg for strength in adversity, light in darkness, consolation in sorrow; above all let them strive to free themselves from the slavery of sin and offer an unceasing homage, filled with filial loyalty, to their Queenly Mother. Let her churches be thronged by the faithful, her feast-days honored; may the beads of the Rosary be in the hands of all; may Christians gather, in small numbers and large, to sing her praises in churches, in homes, in hospitals, in prisons. May Mary’s name be held in highest reverence, a name sweeter than honey and more precious than jewels; may none utter blasphemous words, the sign of a defiled soul, against that name graced with such dignity and revered for its motherly goodness; let no one be so bold as to speak a syllable which lacks the respect due to her name.
+1
> I came out of that religion about 25 years ago after reading for myself what the Bible had to say.
So then what is the problem?
Do you think you been missed?
Regarding the practice of asking Mary to pray for us ... I’ve never talked to a dead person. Not sure there’s much value in doing so.
Mary was a special woman, a chosen vessel through whom the Messiah would come. But she’s dead, unable to hear all the prayers sent her way.
Instead, let’s pray directly to the Lord, and invite our (living) friends to join us.
Did you skip the part about greater hope for salvation for ignorant Catholics who just follow orders than those who actually understand the faith and remain in it?
That’s not what I asked.
I asked if people had ever ASKED someone to pray for them. I know many Christians and Catholics who ask others to pray for them when they are facing surgery, difficult times, trouble with children, etc.
In fact we have a group of Prayer Warriors right here on FR who do that for many people. Catholics and other Christians get those messages asking people to pray for them.
I suppose I shouldn't call the author a liar regarding his testimony that he is a former Catholic. Fair enough. But I will say that his ability to speak with authority on the teachings of the Catholic Church ended with the line quoted above, which comes from his questioner and is not refuted or corrected in any way. Either your author was an unusually ignorant Catholic, or he knows the questioner has made an erroneous statement and is too disingenuous to at least correct it before he goes on to other matters that he thinks are open for dissection.
If he can't address the entirety of the question put before him with credible witness, why should we give the rest of his presentation a hearing?
I thought this was a joke the first time I read it. I don’t know why I’m always surprised at the amount of disinformation that can be spread about one faith in what is supposed to be a genuine article. The way they manage to get in the ‘Mary worship’ and the ‘Roman Catholic’, etc., is almost awe inspiring. Have we not gone over this before?
I started off my morning with a Rosary where I was able to connect my sufferings this last trimester with the sufferings of Christ and offer it all up for women that are unable to conceive. I wish non-Catholics had a better understanding of the supposed “Mary worship”.
Nah, A group of Jews were the first Christians. Roman Catholicism sprang up some time later.
You know, if the author truly was loving, and truly was a Catholic for some years, the first this he’d do in his reply if set the questioner straight with regard to “Mary Worship” and this BALONEY that Catholics believe “the Church is solely responsible for one’s welfare”.
Instead, the author chooses to let the slur stand. How nice.
She's not dead.
He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted." (Luke 18:9-14)
God save me from "reformed" pharisee-ism.
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