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Church celebrates feast of St. Nicholas, the 'original' Santa Claus
cna ^
| December 6, 2009
Posted on 12/06/2009 5:48:31 AM PST by NYer
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To: Kolokotronis
There’s no satisfying you. ;-)
61
posted on
12/09/2009 12:41:00 PM PST
by
Pyro7480
("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
To: Pyro7480; ArrogantBustard
“Theres no satisfying you. ;-)”
And now there’s AB saying that Rome’s the focus of evil on the planet when all along its been me! :)
62
posted on
12/09/2009 1:02:15 PM PST
by
Kolokotronis
(Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
To: Kolokotronis; Pyro7480
I'm not saying that ... I'm saying that
it appears to me that some people think that way. I'm seeing rhetoric on this thread that
appears to me to be motivated by that sort of thinking.
I am profoundly unimpressed by that sort of rhetoric (see post 36 for egregious example) ...
Now ... if you think I'm misunderstanding you ... fine. If you think I've misperceived your motivations ...
I don't know what you're thinking. I can't read your mind.
I can only read your words ... and the sentiments they express (as best I can understand them), are ugly.
I'f you think that I've misunderstood you ...
I'm from Missouri.
Show me.
63
posted on
12/09/2009 1:24:02 PM PST
by
ArrogantBustard
(Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
To: ArrogantBustard; Pyro7480
AB, you misunderstood me if you think I think Rome is the fous of evil of the universe. If you think I think the Pope is an accessory to the theft of the bones of +Nicholas, you’re right. If you think I think Rome is self righteously arrogant, you’re right again. But AB, Rome, like Constantinople and Moscow, is a long way from this thread, our friendships and our home parishes.
AB, I bet you have already guessed that I don’t care if you think my sentiments are “ugly”. I think ecclesial thievery and heresy, as a general matter, are, but then again, I don’t expect as much from hierarchs and my all too human co-religionists as you appear to.
64
posted on
12/09/2009 3:04:26 PM PST
by
Kolokotronis
(Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
To: Pyro7480; eleni121; Kolokotronis; NYer
Quite right. The article talks of the life of St. Nicholas who is revered in both East and West. Why do you read so much that isn't there? So it says Turkish saint -- St. Francis is called an Italian saint though Italy never existed for 500 years after his death -- Mother Teresa is called an Indian saint though she was of Albanian ethnicity born in what is now Bosnia but was then Austria-Hungarian
Calling him "Turkish" or "Earthling" does not in anyway diminish the man or limit him to one place.
65
posted on
12/09/2009 9:04:40 PM PST
by
Cronos
(Nuke Mecca NOW!!!<img src="http://shiitehappens.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/bomb_mecca450.jpg" />)
To: Kolokotronis
Absolute nonsense. The Eastern Romans were very proud that they were part of an Hellenic culture and Myra was a Lycian city populated virtually 100% with ethnic Greeks in +Nicholas time, as it remained until the 1920s.
Lycia was founded by the Hittites. It became Hellenic when it was conquered by Alexander the Great in 324 BC, and then Roman when made a province in 46 AD. It had Hellenic culture, but a mix of Hellenic and Roman Culture. They did not call themselves Greeks but Romans -- even the Byzantines called themselves Romaoi -- even the Turks when they conquered Anatolia called it the Sultanate of the Rum (Rome).
They would not have been 100% Ethnic Greeks for the simple reason that a cosmopolitan city in the East would naturally have a large component of people from Syria, from Armenia and the Caucasus, from Italia, from Egypt and North Africa.
Furthermore, while you can argue that these were largely CULTURALLY Hellenic, there were definitely not ETHNICALLY 100% Hellene.
66
posted on
12/09/2009 9:11:25 PM PST
by
Cronos
(Nuke Mecca NOW!!!<img src="http://shiitehappens.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/bomb_mecca450.jpg" />)
To: Kolokotronis
Firstly, as I said -- the question of theft is debatable, especially after 1000years -- the sailors argued they were protecting the relics from the Muslim hordes. And would you have disputed that in the 11th century knowing what the Muslims had done to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem?
Everyone KNEW the Muslims were iconoclasts -- there was no saying what they could or would have done to Christian Churches. Look at what they did to Christian Churches in Yemen centuries earlier and to Christians in the northern parts of the ARabian peninsula
Secondly, and more importantly -- have the relics not been maintained properly and safely in Bari?
Yes or no?
And, if you want them returned to any place, why should they go to Moscow???? If they create a Christian state of Antioch including Myra and build a Church there, I, personally, would agree that the relics should go there.
In the absence of that, Bari is as good a place as Mt Athos and far better than Moscow.
67
posted on
12/09/2009 9:19:23 PM PST
by
Cronos
(Nuke Mecca NOW!!!<img src="http://shiitehappens.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/bomb_mecca450.jpg" />)
To: Kolokotronis
The Catholic News Service changed the story from Turk to “Lycian” because they actually bothered to find out who Saint Nicholas is but they could not bring themselves to actually say that he is a Greek:
A GREEK living in Asia Minor - where Greek Hellenes HAD lived for thousands of years - and then hundreds of years after his death, merchants of Bari organized a predatory expedition to the burial place of Nicholas, stole the bones, reburied them in Bari.
68
posted on
12/10/2009 10:11:00 AM PST
by
eleni121
(bow)
To: eleni121
“...and then hundreds of years after his death, merchants of Bari organized a predatory expedition to the burial place of Nicholas, stole the bones, reburied them in Bari.”
And have made a fortune off them ever since and since the Vatican demoted +Nicholas because it cannot confirm he was ever canonized, one has to assume the only interest Rome has in keeping the stolen relics in one of its churches is, big surprise, money!
69
posted on
12/10/2009 10:27:12 AM PST
by
Kolokotronis
(Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
To: NYer; All
70
posted on
12/10/2009 1:04:02 PM PST
by
eleni121
(For Jesus did not give us a timid spirit , but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline)
To: Pyro7480
>> a manifestation of how some (too many in, my opinion), are needlessly holding on to centuries-old grudges
Exactly right.
71
posted on
12/14/2009 10:52:40 AM PST
by
a_Turk
(Temperance, Fortitude, Prudence, Justice)
To: NYer; All
72
posted on
12/14/2009 5:30:03 PM PST
by
eleni121
(For Jesus did not give us a timid spirit , but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline)
To: NYer; Kolokotronis; All
73
posted on
12/28/2009 8:40:50 AM PST
by
eleni121
(For Jesus did not give us a timid spirit , but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline)
To: eleni121; Cronos; Kolokotronis
Well it didnt take long for the abominable Turks to demand that the relics be returned! According to the BBC article:
While Christmas is by and large not celebrated in Muslim Turkey, the Christmas figure of Santa Claus certainly is in the Mediterranean town of his birth. snip
Prof Nevzat Cevik, head of archaeological research in Demre, says Saint Nicholas had made it clear during his life that he wanted to be buried in his home town.
Eleni121, do you still feel the bones should be returned to Turkey?
74
posted on
12/28/2009 10:11:15 AM PST
by
NYer
("One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone" - Benedict XVI)
To: NYer
Please don't make things up as you go along....The parastate of Turkey is the LAST place where the relics should be reverently held, and I never believed otherwise. The only possible location within the parasitic state of Turkey would be in the Patriarchate in Constantinople but nobody can guarantee the safety of anything good in that hellhole.
Barring that dangerous move, I strongly suggest the Holy Mountain at Mt. Athos or the Moscow Patriarchate. The relics should temporarily rest in either of those two places. But - should the Cathedral at Bari return to its original Orthodox Christian faith, I would consider keeping the remains there.
75
posted on
12/28/2009 12:25:11 PM PST
by
eleni121
(For Jesus did not give us a timid spirit , but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline)
To: eleni121; Cronos
But - should the Cathedral at Bari return to its original Orthodox Christian faith, I would consider keeping the remains there. Are you suggesting that the Catholic faith is not orthodox?
76
posted on
12/28/2009 4:15:23 PM PST
by
NYer
("One Who Prays Is Not Afraid; One Who Prays Is Never Alone" - Benedict XVI)
To: eleni121; NYer
"
Barring that dangerous move, I strongly suggest the Holy Mountain at Mt. Athos or the Moscow Patriarchate."
Moscow or St. Petersburg. There the relics can be placed in a temple or monastery catholikon where they can be venerated by people who have no doubt as to the sainthood of +Nicholas.
The Holy Mountain would be appropriate but of course access to them would be severely limited.
77
posted on
12/29/2009 5:29:31 AM PST
by
Kolokotronis
(Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
To: NYer; eleni121
"
Are you suggesting that the Catholic faith is not orthodox?"
NYer, the Latin Church does not know if +Nicholas is really a saint. Were the Latin Church to return to its traditional Orthopraxis and beliefs, those doubts would be gone and but for the fact that the relics are stolen and in the hands of the successors of the original thieves, it might be appropriate that they stay with a particular church which indeed does venerate +Nicholas as a saint.
78
posted on
12/29/2009 5:34:32 AM PST
by
Kolokotronis
(Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
To: Kolokotronis
NYer, the Latin Church does not know if +Nicholas is really a saint. Not this thing again. Yes, we do. St. Nicholas must be one of the "ones in doubt" then, like St. Cecilia and St. Christopher, where some nut decided that they probably didn't exist - and then started teaching that. That doesn't make it true. On this particular topic we're fighting a war from the inside. I actually heard someone say that St. Cecilia probably never existed and then less than a year later I went to her original grave at San Calista.
Remember, there are forces actively trying to destroy the Faith by casting doubt on a whole lot of teaching and Tradition. From inside the Vatican. It frustrates us just as much as it does everyone else.
79
posted on
12/29/2009 5:47:54 AM PST
by
Desdemona
(These are the times that try men's souls. - Remember Christmas 1776)
To: Desdemona; eleni121; NYer; FormerLib; kosta50
"
Yes, we do. St. Nicholas must be one of the "ones in doubt" then, like St. Cecilia and St. Christopher, where some nut decided that they probably didn't exist - and then started teaching that. That doesn't make it true."
No less a "nut" than Pope Paul VI, the infallible Vicar of Christ on Earth, demoted him because he found no evidence that he had ever been "canonized"! Imagine the irony for us Orthodox that the Ustasha cardinal Stepanic, whose name is already called upon by Latins to intercede with Christ for them, is on the road to sainthood, while +Nicholas' sainthood is in doubt because a pope like Paul VI couldn't find any evidence that he had ever been canonized.
The Latin laity really ought to do something about that sort of nonsense.
80
posted on
12/29/2009 6:08:42 AM PST
by
Kolokotronis
(Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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