Posted on 11/30/2009 6:01:03 PM PST by delacoert
I’ll just leave this here…
Before a defense of any kind of religious discrimination, one ought to make all of the necessary disclaimers: of course I oppose government-sponsored discrimination, and I certainly would not support the kind of absurd treatment described by Steven Reinhart in his piece featured below. That being said, there is a legitimate case to be made for judging any candidate for office by his religious convictions.
In late 2007, Mitt Romney made his somewhat-famous speech on religion, where he spoke the following words:
“Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom. Freedom opens the windows of the soul so that man can discover his most profound beliefs and commune with God. Freedom and religion endure together, or perish alone.”
Similarly, Romney has stated: “I believe in my Mormon faith and I endeavor to live by it…my faith is the faith of my fathers. I will be true to them and to my beliefs.”
If freedom requires religion, if his Mormon faith sustains his life and he will be true to those practices, then I’m at an utter loss as to why we should ignore Romney’s religious beliefs when evaluating his fitness for the White House.
We ask plenty of questions of any Evangelical Christian candidate: what do his beliefs about the nature of God, the nature of the cosmos, and the meaning of man’s life mean for his potential tenure in office? But for whatever reason, these questions are looked at as unnecessarily piercing and prejudiced when asked of a member of a minority faith.
When Sarah Palin gave her fumbling answer about Israel’s settlements, several commentators jumped on her faith, wondering whether she subscribed to the bizarre but potent sect of modern Christianity that believes in the imminence of the End Times. Will anyone ask Mitt Romney about the oddities of the dogma of the Mormon Church? There are plenty of Mormon doctrines that may strike people as a bit odd — and rightly so. It is established in the church that the devout can reach the upper echelons of heaven and eventually become gods themselves, able to create their own universes and govern them as they see fit (all while supervised by the One True God). Why is it that when I bring this up to Romney fans, I am dismissed as a bigot?
As an atheist, I both understand and accept that in a predominantly Christian society, my thoughts on religion are necessarily going to open me up to questions. If I were to ever run for office (don’t count on that, by the way), I would not expect my supporters would try to ward off any questions about my atheism with the victim-card of discrimination. One’s philosophy of religion contributes profoundly to his worldview and thus is a completely valid criterion by which to partially evaluate a candidate’s fitness for office.
I view all religions as equally bizarre and irrational. But mainstream Christianity is often adopted as a cultural guise, meant for purposes of assimilation with the majority. Probe most self-described Christians and you’ll find plenty of deviation from standard dogma. Devotion to Mormonism, which is completely outside of the American mainstream, requires a certain level of commitment. To what extent will Romney’s faith influence his decision-making? I ask that question of devoted Evangelicals and judge them accordingly, and I will do the same of a Mormon. And I am not going to apologize for that.
Yes.
argue that they do not believe in Christ, you have a mountain of Mormon scripture to overcome
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Yes lets look at some more of what the mormons say about the mormon savior, Joey Smith...
“I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, “Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;” if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again.”
- Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155
“It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men.... If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,”
- Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670
And how many anti-MUSLIM bigots agree with YOU?
You may, but it’s an irrelvancy, and I suspect that it’s intended to be used as an ad hominem, and I choose not to share it.
argue that they do not believe in Christ, you have a mountain of Mormon scripture to overcome
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Yes lets look at some more of what the mormons say about the mormon savior, Joey Smith...
They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.
He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.
He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.
As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.
Who has made this so?
Have I?
Have this people?
Have the world?
No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.
If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.
If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.
Can you pass without his inspection?
No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.
In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.
They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?
They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?
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“If I ever pass into heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of Prophet Joseph”
—Brigham Young
—JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224
For several years in either the 50’s or 60’s, Women were not even allowed to pray in LDS main Church services (Sacrament Meeting).
Isn't that interewsting...
The entire LDS Organization® ATTACKS Christianity DAILY!!!
Hugs, smiles, warm fuzzies and everything. :)
No need to lie when the TRUTH serves us SO well!
Maybe I can even talk the Catholics into a knife fight with the Espcioplains at the next citywide meeting...
That would be the bomb.
BTW remember your mentioning of Niccea and the fact you Know plenty” of the Mormon faith...
What is their take on that Creed?
Remember when I asked you about sect vs. denomination, when I pointed out about the Muslim saying “I'm a Christian”....
Are you seeing a pattern here?
No, I really was curious. Your tagline suggests one thing but your posts something else. That's okay.
Spiritual threats do exceed physical ones, yes. Souls are more important.
And lest you accuse me of just “talking” and not “acting”. I have (more than once) risked my life, in countries hostile to Christianity, to spread my faith.
I’m in...
BTW, I've played in & even ref’d in those interdenominational leagues. They're a hoot.
No PROBLEM!
At least for Joe Smith and the MORMON leaders who pushed POLYGAMY.
They managed to 'overcome' not only the BIBLE's admonition to have just one wife; but also the Book of MORMON's call to do the SAME!
This is the exact same kind of drivel I saw for years with both pro-abortionists and well-meaning, less-than-active Christians as they'd describe abortion...as some impersonal abstract "issue" -- but no body count ever recognized. The cults & world religions both have exacted a spiritual "body count." It's time you stopped addressing everything in the abstract.
Please recognize the spiritual threat by cult leaders has been so great to the body going back to at least Ephesus at the time of the apostle Paul that he described them as "wolves" (see Acts 20).
A true shepherd wouldn't look at 3 sheep being taken from his flock and conclude, "Well, you know the real threat are the predators who took those other 3 sheep on the other side and who'll take 10, 20, or 30 by the year XYZ." A true shepherd feels the loss of all of them, and doesn't rate sheep loss according to predator. Given that you don't have the markings of such a true shepherd, what kind of a shepherd does that leave? A hireling? A false shepherd?
Something about never let you level of knowledge exceed your level of understanding.
Never ceases to amaze me the number of folks who know far more than they understand...
Yes, certainly. ...if you believe all the clearly anti-Mormon sources without question and ignore any contradicting views.
All that, and it's still a far cry from Nana's absurd statement.
Christians have killed Christians, Mormons have killed Mormons, Christians have killed Mormon, Mormons have killed Christians.
All of these things reek of the stench of the evil one... We had a couple of LDS teams in a league down on the coast many years ago when I lived there. (yes in the South) good players all. We shook hands and hugged after and shared a fine meal each week.
It is not about the people, it is about the beliefs, the ISMS.
Gosh what do we do about these TWOO words of Joey Smith ???
Thomas B. Marsh, who had served as President of the Council of Twelve Apostles in the Mormon Church, gave an affidavit in which he stated: “I have heard the Prophet say... if he was not let alone, he would be a second Mohammed to this generation... that like Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was, ‘the Alcoran [i.e., the Koran] or the Sword.’ So should it be eventually with us, ‘Joseph Smith or the Sword.’ “ (History of the Church, vol. 3, p. 167)
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