Posted on 11/08/2009 7:04:08 AM PST by Gamecock
Mormon Stumpers
In your discussions with Mormons, they will most often wish to direct the topics presented into those areas where they feel most informed and comfortable. Whether they are the young missionaries at your door or friends or colleagues, they have all been taught several lines of approach and have been drilled in making their points.
We suggest that you take charge of such conversations. Besides acquainting yourself with the basics of Mormon teaching (in addition, of course, to the fundamentals of the Catholic faith), consider presenting the Mormon apologist with a few "stumpers."
"We don’t bash your church, why bash ours?"
Somehow, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints have been persuaded by their leaders that they have always been on the receiving end of uncharitable comments and unjust accusations. From the time Joseph Smith began his work in 1820, the Mormon church has gloried in the "fact" that it is a persecuted people. For them, this is a sure sign that it is the Lord’s true church; all opposition comes ultimately from Satan. So, if you do offer a question or a criticism, be prepared for this reaction.
Many Mormons, including their hierarchy, look upon any criticism—regardless of how honest and sincere—as perverseness inspired by the Evil One. But these same individuals ignore their own past (and present) attacks on Christian churches. You might like to point out a few of these to those Mormons who say their church "never attacks other churches."
1. "I was answered that I must join none of them (Christian churches), for they were all wrong…their creeds were an abomination in [God’s] sight; that those professors were all corrupt" (Joseph Smith—History 1:19).
2. "Orthodox Christian views of God are pagan rather than Christian" (Mormon Doctrine of Deity, B. H. Roberts [General Authority], 116).
3. "Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast" (Journal of Discourses, John Taylor [3rd Mormon President], 13:225).
4. "The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church, is the great corrupt, ecclesiastical power, represented by great Babylon" (Orson Pratt, Writings of an Apostle, Orson Pratt, n. 6, 84).
5. "All the priests who adhere to the sectarian [Christian] religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels" (The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith, ed. Vol. 1, n. 4, 60).
6. [Under the heading, "Church of the Devil," Apostle Bruce R. McConkie lists:] "The Roman Catholic Church specifically—singled out, set apart, described, and designated as being ‘most abominable above all other churches’ (I Ne. 13:5)" (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, 129).
7. "Believers in the doctrines of modern Christendom will reap damnation to their souls (Morm. 8; Moro. 8)" (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, Bruce R. McConkie, 177).
Some contemporary Mormons, embarrassed—at least publicly—by McConkie’s ranting, will respond with, "That’s only his opinion." This is disingenuous at best. Keep in mind that McConkie, who died in 1985, was raised to the level of "apostle" in the Mormon church after he had written all these things. And still today, his Mormon Doctrine is published by a church-owned publishing company and remains one of the church’s bestsellers.
"We have no revelation on abortion"
Didn’t you assume Mormons were pro-life? That’s certainly the image their church attempts to broadcast, and most Mormons, in fact, mistakenly believe their church opposes abortion and regards it as an objective evil. But not so.
Indeed, the Mormon church accepts abortion for a number of reasons. The Church Handbook of Instructions, approved in September, 1998, states that abortion may be performed in the following circumstances: pregnancy resulting from rape or incest; a competent physician says the life or health of the mother is in serious jeopardy; or a competent physician says that the "fetus" has severe defects that will not allow the "baby" to survive beyond birth. In any case, the persons responsible must first consult with their church leader and receive God’s approval in prayer (156).
This same Handbook, the official policies of the Mormon church to be followed by all local church leaders throughout the world, also claims: "It is a fact that a child has life before birth. However, there is no direct revelation on when the spirit enters the body" (156). Previous teachings by former Mormon prophets referred to the unborn child as "a child," "a baby," a "human being," and decried abortion as "killing," "a grievous sin," "a damnable practice." Spencer W. Kimball, the prophet who died in 1985, taught, "We have repeatedly affirmed the position of the church in unalterably opposing all abortions" (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 189).
It appears that this "unalterable" position, constantly "affirmed," is just another in a series of doctrinal and moral teachings that Mormons have reworded, reworked, rescinded, or reneged—though never officially renounced. Such is the quality of the Mormon belief in "continuing revelation." Don’t expect dogmatic or ethical consistency. Rather, look for expediency and conformity with "the times."
A further statement in the Handbook says: "The church has not favored or opposed legislative proposals or public demonstrations concerning abortion (156)." While the Mormon prophet claims to speak the mind and will of God, he can neither figure out when the unborn child becomes human or if it is God’s desire that we protect the unborn unconditionally.
Your Mormon friend will offer the excuse that his church leaves many decisions to the free agency (free will) of its people, and that abortion is one such concern. You might point out the irony in the fact that the Mormon church has no hesitation or uncertainty in making the following declarations:
1. "The church opposes gambling in any form" (including lotteries). Members are also urged to oppose legislation and government sponsorship of any form of gambling (Handbook, 150).
2. The church also opposes [correctly, of course] pornography in any form (158).
3. Church members are to reject all efforts to legally authorize or support same-sex unions (158).
There is no need for a member to pray for divine guidance or seek church approval for such activities, for there will be no divine or ecclesiastical finessing of morality to permit even an occasional bingo game. A prayerful game of poker, unrepented, will bar the member from the temple and ultimate salvation; a prayerful, by-the-book abortion, unrepented, won’t.
Something’s wrong here
"Only Mormons teach the true nature of God."
Because they believe the Church established by Christ 2,000 years ago fell completely away from his teachings within a century or so of his death, Mormons argue that only a thorough "restoration" (and not a simple "reformation") of the true Church and its holy doctrines would lead man to salvation. Joseph Smith organized this "restored church" in 1830. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints preaches a belief central to most religions: one must know the true nature of God. "It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God" (Teachings of Joseph Smith, 345ff).
No Christian disputes the absolute necessity of knowing the nature of God (to the extent our reason, aided by grace, can apprehend this great mystery). Indeed, the Catholic Church and other Christian denominations have been united in a constant belief in the supreme God as almighty, eternal, and unchanging. Mormons have not been favored by similar clarity from their self-described "prophets" who receive "direct revelation" from the gods.
You may wish to ask your Mormon acquaintance to consider the following authoritative statements by their earlier and present prophets.
1. In an early book of "Scripture" brought forth by Joseph Smith, the creation account consistently refers to the singular when speaking of God and creation: "I, God, caused . . . I, God, created . . . I, God, saw. . . . " The singular is used 50 times in the second and third chapters of the Book of Moses (1831).
2. In another of Smith’s earlier works, the Book of Mormon (1830), there are no references to a plurality of gods. At best, there is a confusion, at times, between the Father and the Son, leading at times to the extreme of modalism (one divine person who reveals himself sometimes as the Father, sometimes as the Son) or the other extreme of "binitarianism," belief in two persons in God. The Book of Mormon also makes a strong point for God’s spiritual and eternal unity (see Alma 11:44 and 22:10-11, which proclaims that God is the "Great Spirit").
3. Another early work of Smith is the Lectures on Faith (1834-35). There is continual evidence that the first Mormon leader taught a form of bitheism: the Father and the Son are separate gods. The Holy Spirit is merely the "mind" of the two.
4. At about the same time, we begin to see a doctrinal shift. Smith had acquired some mummies and Egyptian papyri. He proclaimed the writings to be those of the patriarch, Abraham, in his own hand, and set out to translate the text. His Book of Abraham records in chapters four and five that "the gods called . . . the gods ordered . . . the gods prepared" some 45 times. Smith thus introduces the notion of a plurality of gods.
5. The clearest exposition of this departure from traditional Christian doctrine is seen in Smith’s tale of a "vision" he had as a boy of 14. Both the Father and the Son appeared to him, he wrote; they were two separate "personages." This story of two gods was not authorized and distributed by the church until 1838, after his Book of Abraham had paved the way for polytheism.
6. Readers will notice that the Father is said to have appeared, along with his resurrected Son. In his final doctrinal message, Smith showed how this was possible.
In the King Follett Discourse (a funeral talk he gave in 1844), Joseph Smith left his church with the clearest statement to date on the nature of God:
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens[.] That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man. The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, ‘As the Father hath power to himself, even so hath the Son power’—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it."
As the Mormon church has taught since that time, God the Father was once a man who was created by his God, was born and lived on another earth, learned and lived the "Mormon gospel," died, and was eventually resurrected and made God over this universe. As such, he retains forever his flesh-and-bones body.
7. Aside from some temporary detours (Orson Pratt said the Holy Ghost was a spiritual fluid that filled the universe; Brigham Young taught that Adam is the god of this world), the Mormon church has constantly taught that God the Father is a perfected man with a physical body and parts. Right-living Mormon men may also progress, as did the Father, and eventually become gods themselves. In fact, fifth president, Lorenzo Snow, summed up the Mormon teaching thus: "As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be." Snow frequently claimed this summary of the Mormon doctrine on God and man was revealed to him by inspiration. (See Stephen E. Robinson, Are Mormons Christian?, 60, note 1.)
8. "Thou shalt not have strange gods before me." What is stranger than a God who starts off as a single Spirit, eternal and all-powerful; who then becomes, perhaps, two gods in one, and then three; who never changes, yet was once born a man, lived, sinned, repented, and died; who was made God the Father of this world by his own God; and who will make his own children gods someday of their own worlds?
That all believing Christians are shocked and disturbed by this b.asphemy may—just may—be nudging the Mormon leadership to soften their rhetoric (if not actually change their heresy). A case in point is an interview with current church prophet, Gordon B. Hinckley, published in the San Francisco Chronicle on April 13, 1997. When asked: "[D]on’t Mormons believe that God was once a man?" Hinckley demurred. "I wouldn’t say that. There’s a little couplet coined, ‘As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.’ Now, that’s more of a couplet than anything else. That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don’t know very much about" (3/Z1).
A surprising admission, as Hinckley seems to disparage the constant teaching of all his prophetic predecessors.
Choose, if you like, any one of these three attacks: on Christians; on the sanctity of life; on God. Ask your Mormon listener to explain the contradictions of his church. Don’t be satisfied with a personal, subjective, emotional "testimony." Demand clarification of confused and contradictory teachings.
When they aren’t forthcoming, be prepared to offer the truth.
Did you follow the link? Let me provide the title of the FR article: " LDS Church gives nod to Landmark status for Mountain Meadows site
Seems they might have a bit of Mormon Pride in that.
Society ???
Pleasing society ???
Grasshopper, Christianity is about pleasing God, not man...
Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ. Galations 1:10
But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. Hebrews 11:6
Being a card carrying member of a state run church hardly makes one a Christian. To this day Germany is full of Protstants and Catholics who never enter the doors of the church. Yet they are on the roles.
I would like to point out that there were REAL Christian martyrs of the Holocaust.
What we are clearly seeing from our FRiend monocle is his desire for us to “go in the corner and color.”
Thankfully we have people like monocle to tell us how to behave and what to believe is right and true about world religion. < /sarc>
Your observations are exactly what I am trying bring home. Most people will say, even they do not truly believe or accordingly, that racial discrimination is wrong and yet many self proclaimed religious people practice religious discrimination. I would point out that in the former Soviet Union jews were considered a separate race.
“WORKS?!?”
Yeah, do you do anything good in your church, or do you just talk about it?
This is not a trick question.
You cannot even bring yourself to give an “atta-boy” to a group of folks that have helped people?
Then you dare quote scripture implying that because of the good things Mormons do, it is somehow contrary to Christian belief?
I think you get the point.....the deeds are Christian, even if you disagree with the theology.
Really?
In the 1980s, the United States Supreme Court ruled that Jews are a race, at least for purposes of certain anti-discrimination laws. Their reasoning: at the time these laws were passed, people routinely spoke of the "Jewish race" or the "Italian race" as well as the "Negro race," so that is what the legislators intended to protect.
“Just THE Word”
You and other anti-Mormon posters post words from the Bible. The Mormons are busy preparing to help people in need.
Anyone can post the words in the Bible. Mormon’s actually put it into action.
This is very simple: Just agree with me that Mormons do good things to help people - that is really inarguable, regardless of anything else you may claim they do.
It certainly demonstrates the level of antipathy towards other religions that is possible. That antipathy isn’t shared, in general, by the Mormons. That’s why they are better Americans, on average, than most of the folks critical of them on this thread!
Sure we do good works.
You cannot even bring yourself to give an “atta-boy” to a group of folks that have helped people?
Matthew 6:1 “Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. 2 “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
Then you dare quote scripture implying that because of the good things Mormons do, it is somehow contrary to Christian belief?
Don't blame me. I didn't write it, I just follow it. As per....
What's more "Christian belief" does not include God having sex with the Virgin Mary, the belief in multiple gods, the belief that Jesus and Satan are brothers, that Jos. Smith has control over who gets in and who doesn't....
Oh, you seem to be the one who thinks I believe Mormons are evil. As a whole they are great people, they just happen to be as wrong as two left shoes.
the Mormons then, if you can’t mimic their good works
_______________________________________________
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Grasshopper, Grasshopper... (BIG SIGH)
A religion of man, humanism etc...
“Mimic” ???
Mimic Joey Smith ???
Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of Heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of Heaven. Matthew 5:19, 20
Jesus said to be perfect as God is perfect, not society’s idea of perfect...
Be perfect, therefore, as your Heavenly Father is perfect. Matthew 5:48
Christianity is about following Jesus not “mimicing’ the self-righteous activities of people as lost as a goose in a snow storm...
The so called “good works” of the mormons are as filthy rags to Jesus...
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Isaiah 64:6
The Douay-Rheims Bible tramslates that passage into “the rag of a menstruous woman”
The Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible commentary says in note 6. “unclean thing-legally unclean, as a leper.”
The Geneva Bible notes that “our righteousness, and best virtues are before you as vile cloths, or (as some read) like the menstruous cloths of a woman.”
Nobody can work their way into Heaven...
None of us will ever be “good” enough...
It is only by the Grace of God that we are saved..
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2:8, 9
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
God doesnt like that there boasting of the mormons...
May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. Galations 6:14
The Christians in these threads are obeying God and pleasing Him when they refuse to “boast” of works to please the naysayers...
The Christians here continue to boast of our Lord Jesus Christ, and His crucifiction for our redemption...
Jesus said “Follow me”...(Nothing about “follow society”)
Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me. John 12:26
As I recall, they said Jesus was rude, also...
The Christians in these threads are in good company...
Sure they do.
But that doesn't make them Christian.
Anyone can post the words in the Bible. Mormon’s actually put it into action.
You and other anti-Mormon posters post words from the Bible. The Mormons are busy preparing to help people in need.
____________________________________________
Shall I “post words from the Bible” that Jesus said about that ???
Oh, yes, I shall...
Well you know I would...
Let’s say the mormons and their enablers are named Martha...
and the Christians in these threads are named Mary...
As Jesus and his disciples were on their way, he came to a village where a woman named Martha opened her home to him. She had a sister called Mary, who sat at the Lord’s feet listening to what he said. But Martha was distracted by all the preparations that had to be made. She came to him and asked, “Lord, don’t you care that my sister has left me to do the work by myself? Tell her to help me!”
“Martha, Martha,” the Lord answered, “you are worried and upset about many things, but only one thing is needed. Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her.” Luke 10:38-42
Then I will never feel ashamed when I study all your commandments. Psalm 119:6
Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. Psalm 119:109
I devoted myself to study and to explore by wisdom all that is done under heaven. What a heavy burden God has laid on men! Ecclesiates 1:131
He had begun his journey from Babylon on the first day of the first month, and he arrived in Jerusalem on the first day of the fifth month, for the gracious hand of his God was on him. For Ezra had devoted himself to the study and observance of the Law of the LORD, and to teaching its decrees and laws in Israel. Ezra 7:9, 10
Study to show yourself approved to God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
However, the person who continues to study God’s perfect teachings that make people free and who remains committed to them will be blessed. People like that don’t merely listen and forget; they actually do what God’s teachings say. James 1:25
“Then you dare quote scripture implying that because of the good things Mormons do, it is somehow contrary to Christian belief?”
Yes, how dare you quote Scripture Gamecock! The Word of God has no place in a discussion of Christianity.
Those who would argue that one faith is as good as another, and that debates about doctrine are a waste of time are nothing more than tools in the hands of Satan himself.
“Solemn is it to realize that there are now in hell multitudes of men and women who on earth were visited with deep conviction of sin, whose awakened conscience made the conscious of their rebellion against their Maker, who were made to feel something of the reality of the everlasting burnings, and the justice of God meting out such punishment to those who spurn His authority and trample His laws beneath their feet. How solemn to realize that many of those who experienced such convictions were aroused to flee from the wrath to come, and became very zealous and diligent in seeking to escape the torments of hell, and who under the instinct of self-preservation took up with “religion” as offering the desired means of escape. And how unspeakably solemn to realize that many of those poor souls fell victim to men who spoke “smooth things,” assuring them that they were the objects of God’s love, and that nothing more was needed than to “receive Christ as you personal Savior.” How unspeakably solemn, we say, that such souls look to Christ merely as a fire-escape, who never - from a supernatural work of the Spirit in their hearts - surrendered to Christ as Lord.
Does the reader say, “Such statements as the above are most unsettling, and if dwelt upon would destroy my peace.” We answer, O that it may please God to use these pages to disturb some who have long enjoyed a false peace. Better far, dear reader, to be upset, yea, searched and terrified now, than die in the false comfort produced by Satan, and weep an wail for all eternity. If you are unwilling to be tested and search, that is clear proof that you lack an “honest heart.” An “honest” heart desire to know the Truth. An “honest” heart hates pretense. An “honest” heart is fearful of being deceived.” - A.W. Pink “The Holy Spirit”
Ok; I will; if that'll make you happy:
"Mormons do good things to help people."
Now then; will you agree with me that MORMONism leads people away from the True and Living GOD?
This post is my opinion and understanding of what I’ve seen and read. There will of course, be differences of opinion about what I write here and that’s fine. Just posting my thoughts.
I think the problem most have with the postings is the confrontational nature or tone that comes across in typed words as opposed to hearing the verbal tone meant. The “inmans” aren’t opposed to mormons so much as they’re opposed to mormonism. I think we can all agree that the vast majority of mormons are good and decent people.
It took me a while to see through that and to understand that it’s more about “point-counterpoint” than “bashing”. These folks are softhearted. They will answer questions and provide guidance people are searching for.
I was a convert to the lds back in the early ‘90s and was ignorant of scripture. Figured it was “not really different” than many other Christian denominations.
Well, as I got a bit older I started to realize that alot of what they teach after you’ve been in the religion for a while didn’t jive with my basic understanding of Christianity. I’m married to a very active mormon and I can attest to the differences between the two.
The postings the “inmans” make are more for countering the false premises the lds use and to educate those like myself who are trying to comprehend the gravity of the mistake we made in joining the lds church. It’s also to educate those who may be having spiritual problems as a result of being lds all their lives as well.
Once the real history and truth of the lds religion is revealed, it should be difficult, if not impossible for folks to retain any notion of the “truth” of it. I can understand Christians’ consternation with the lds. When you’re told that you’re religion is an obimination by a 14 year old who claims to have seen God and Jesus and all he can say and write is that he saw “two personages”, you’re going to be a “tad” upset.
I came to realize that there will be consequences for following false prophets and for refusing to open one’s eyes to see the truth.
So, to answer your question asked of Colofornian, yes, there is a payoff. As I’m learning, it’s incumbent upon every Christian to spread the Word. And the “inmans” in doing so, have brought me out of the lds and into a clearer understanding of the falseness of the lds religion.
I hope my post brings some perspective.
FRegards,
SZ
bttt
No, not to bankroll your way to becoming a god. What you don't seem to understand is that a supposed "good work" in God's eyes loses value according to the selfishness attached to the motive. If I'm trying to rack up good works, either to...
(a) earn godhood status;
or (b) climb my way into heaven based upon my "good work ladder" I've built,
then (c) I'm committing my own tower of Babel sin in God's eyes -- I'm trying to "sky" my way on my own into heaven
Yet you and people just like you criticize, and complain.
All of your posts to me in this thread have amounted to a series of critiques & complaints.
Just say a kind word - the Mormons do good works and help people, don’t they?
Of course they do. But that's never been the issue. I've got Mormon blood in me. I've seen their good works firsthand. But human good works get you only so far as human good works can take you. And if that's what you're trusting in for becoming a god, you're gonna fall short. Now, just parrot after me: "Temple Mormons believe they are either already a 'god-in-embryo' or will become a god. Now, tell me, what descriptive thing can you say about Mormons or non-Mormons who think they already are a god -- or will become one?"
The bottom line is that Mormons take a Book of Mormon verse to heart, 2 Nephi 25:23: "You are saved by grace, AFTER ALL YOU CAN DO." Those who take this verse literally believe that for God's unearned grace to kick in, they've got to DO everything THEY can DO. So in THIS context, DOING is spiritual suicide. Why? Because you NEVER can DO enough.
Ask a Mormon: Have you ever done enough spiritually? Have you ever done enough relationally? Have you ever done enough physical good works? Have you ever done enough emotionally? Etc. Etc. Etc.
Isn’t that a good thing that is unlikely to hurt them on Judgment day?
No -- it's not a "good thing" to audition for godhood with your "good works." That's true if you're Obama the Messiah, Hillary the wonder-worker, or Joe Mormon the "embryo god."
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