Posted on 11/03/2009 9:42:30 AM PST by GonzoII
LOL - she CONSENTED to bring Him into the world????
Without Mary there would be no Jesus, no savior?
God’s plan for salvation of the world required the CONSENT of a human?
So God was sitting around thinking
Wow, I hope she agrees. If this girl doesn’t say yes I don’t know WHAT I will do, I mean, I’m God and everything, but I really hope (I wish I could pray for help, but, you know, I’m God, so that won’t work) I mean really really hope that she comes through. Here I am, God, with a master plan written before the foundation of the world, waiting for a call back from Mary.
The problem with the over-emphasis on Mary is that it detracts from the power and majesty that is God.
Do you think Mary had influence on the morality of the incarnate living God? Christ, free from sin and able to calm even the wind with just a word, needed Mary to teach him right from wrong? Mary was BLESSED with the HONOR of caring for Jesus.
Consent? You insult God with such careless statements.
The true insult to God is to deny His omnipotence by claiming He could not create a being with free will.
That version of God makes the Holy Spirit some kind of rapist. Either the Holy Spirit's action was consensual or not.
You wrote:
“I don’t agree with this, but it’s also a how-many-angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin type of issue.”
Two points:
1) There is no evidence anyone actually EVER argued over how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. It may very well be a pious Protestant fraud from the Anglican divine named Chillingworth.
2) As a professor once pointed out to me: If the argument ever took place, it would actually be an important and useful way to explain the philosophical and scientific considerations about space and matter. Can an incorporeal being, or many incorporeal beings, occupy physical space in the physical world? Angels certainly seem to have done so according to descriptions in the Bible, but how exactly does that work out in the relationship between the corporeal and incorporeal? This sort of disputation was important for the development of arguments and theories related to optics, matter, etc.
You’re shooting fish in a barrel today.
>>I disagree. 1. A virgin wed to an aged man could and 2. There is no evidence in the Bible she wasn’t a virgin even after the birth of Jesus. Why this is impossible after the Incarnation doesn’t make a lot of sense. It doesn’t make a lot of sense either to have another child after you just gave birth to the Son of God.<<
Regarding number one, I agree. There are exceptions to every rule.
Regarding number two, you are correct about that. However, There is no record of many childless married couples alive today having sex. It is still reasonable to assume they do. There is absolutely NOTHING in the bible that would cause me to in any way assume that Joseph and Mary did not have sex. Remembember, she may have given birth to the Son of God, but life goes on. You still live it a day at a time. If she was a normal healthy woman and her husband was too, they most certainly had sex. To suggest otherwise is not viewing them from a “real people” lens.
There is nothing in the bible that explicitly says they had sex. Then again, there is nothing in my grandfather’s record that specifically said he drove his tractor. However, he had a tractor and a small farm with no farmhands.
I’m gonna bet he drove his tractor.
>>now that their is funny...
how exactly would you have been saved without Mary?<<
God would have chosen someone else.
>>I believe that Mary was a Godly woman and had sex with Joseph after Jesus’ birth. But the verse you quote is a translation. The original language for “until” has a very specific sequence which means up until and has no linguistic value for the future. Looking at all of the evidence in the Bible, taking into account the original language, the Bible does not say either way if Mary was ever virgin or not.
Without tradition, there is no meaningful salvation difference between ever virgin and not. Logically, I would relate a virgin wife to a fig tree that doesn’t bear fruit. It’s just wrong.<<
This.
Which begs the question, “how many angels CAN dance on the head of a pin?”
;)
You wrote:
“God’s plan for salvation of the world required the CONSENT of a human?”
The world was damned by the first woman (and yes, the first man’s) consent to disobedience to God.
Why wouldn’t the world’s redemption include a woman’s obedience to God?
As St. Irenaeus of Lyons (130-202 A.D.) wrote:
“Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying: “Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word” [Luke 1:38] Eve, however, was disobedient. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith.”
How exactly would you have been damned without Eve?
Wow, I am simply flabbergasted.
I said nothing of the sort - diminishing God’s power is the problem with Mary-ists. They give her honor reserved unto God alone. Rape of the Holy Spirit? You are way off the deep end. Seriously.
Since you seem to think there was some request made by God to Mary - how did that conversation go? Or did He submit his request in writing, perhaps in triplicate with copies for her attorney and Rabbi to put on file. A Biblical reference would be a good start...
What would have happened had Mary said no?
No Christ?
God needs a plan B?
Some other girl?
Explain then to me how your version fits Biblically.
***
I am not denying free will - but God had and has a plan. Mary was honored to be part of it, not the other way around. The constant battle to defend Mary as super-special more often than not ends up taking away from God in order to add to her.
To give Mary honor as though she has some sort of lasting influence is neither Biblical nor does it respect God as truly almighty, omnipotent, omniscient, and eternal. Respect her for the service she gave to humanity, respect her for her faith through His earthly life and suffering. But that is where it should end.
Why didn’t God “choose someone else” at the beginning, when Eve said “No”?
>>This is refuted in the original posting.<<
Actually, not even close. It is argued, but not refuted. It is actually argued quite poorly. There are two other biblical issues that I have seen argued with equal contorting of scripture: Church of Christ arguing that musical instruments are inapropriate; homosexual priests arguing that homosexuality is not a sin.
The three all use scripture in the same way. It just proves that if your pet issue is important enough, you can - in your own mind at least - interpret scripture to say anything you want.
I think we all do it but tend to be blind to our own personal examples. But further study should cause us to alter our position as our error is discovered.
When did folks first start believing that Mary had other kids? When did the first Reformer deny that mary was a perpetual virgin? And who was it? Are there Protestants who still believe that she was a perpetual virgin?
Freegards
Obedience and consent are different concepts.
Obedience recognizes God’s will as ultimate.
Consent indicates that my decision is the choice with power.
>>You’re claiming that Mary bore no fruit.<<
Reread. He is claiming that if Mary was a perpetual virgin she bore no “marital relationship” fruit. And that IS just wrong. At least, according to:
1 Corinthians 7:4
The wife’s body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband’s body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife.
This really is NOT rocket science. The bible is VERY clear on this issue.
>>Why didn’t God “choose someone else” at the beginning, when Eve said “No”?<<
You’ll have to ask him about his plan. Looks like he got the answer he expected. There also may have been a smaller pool of people to “ask”. It is most definitely a peripheral issue though.
He did not say that. He said this:
I would relate a virgin wife to a fig tree that doesn't bear fruit.
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