Posted on 11/03/2009 9:42:30 AM PST by GonzoII
There is absolutely ho historical evidence that Mary, the mother of Jesus, had other children. The Catholic Church teaches that Mary was a Virgin before, during, and after the birth of Jesus.
The belief in Mary’s perpetual virginity (which necessarily includes her virginity after the birth of Christ) has been so deeply rooted in Catholic Tradition from the very beginning, that the Fathers of the Church instinctively and vigorously rose to its defense every time early heretics questioned it. Among the many witnesses that could be mentioned in this connection are: Origen, St. Epheaem, St. Hilary, St. Zeno, St. John Chrysostom, St. Epiphanius, St. Ambrose, St. Jerome, St. Augustine and many others. The Reformers, Martin Luther and John Calvin also accepted the Catholic doctrine of Our Lady’s perpetual virginity.
Mt.13:55, and Mk. 6:3 name the following as brothers of Jesus: James, Joseph (Joses - the manuscripts vary on the spelling), Simon and Judas. But Mt. 27:56, says at the cross were Mary the mother of James and Joseph. Mark 15:40 says Mary the mother of James the younger and Joses was there. So, although the proof is not conclusive, it seems that – unless we suppose these were others with the same names, that the first two, James and Joseph (Joses) had a mother other than the Mother of Jesus.
Therefore the term brother was used for those who were not sons of Mary the Mother of Jesus. So the same easily could be the case with the other two, Simon and Judas.
Further if Mary had other natural sons and daughters too at the time of the cross, it would be strange for Jesus to ask John to take care of her.
The words “brother” or “sister” were defined by their use.
The Hebrew and Aramaic ah was used for various types of relations. Hebrew had no word for cousin. They could say ben-dod, which means son of a paternal uncle, but for other kinds of cousins they would need a complex phrase, such as “the son of the brother of his mother” or, “the son of the sister of his mother”.
Lot, who was the nephew of Abraham (cf. Gen. 11:27-31) is called his brother in Gen. 13:8 and 14:14-16. Certainly, the Greek language does have words for cousins and other relatives, but the Septuagint (the old Greek translation of the Hebrew OT -- abbreviated LXX) uses Greek adelphos, brother, for Lot - who as mentioned above, was really a nephew, so that objection doesn’t prove the case.
Furthermore, the writers of the Gospels and Epistles often had Hebrew words in mind when they wrote Greek words. This is especially true with St. Paul. And there is strong evidence that St. Luke at some points was translating Hebrew documents.
Mt. 1:25 – “but knew her not until she had borne a son; and he called his name Jesus”. Non-Catholics like to point to two words here, “until” and “firstborn”.
Most ancient words have a broad span of possible meanings. Sometimes the word for until leaves room for a change after the time point indicated. However this was not always the case. In Dt. 34:6, Moses was buried, “and to this day no one knows where the grave is”. That was true in the day of the writer of Dt.; it is still true even today. In Psalm 110:1, as interpreted by Jesus Himself (Mt.22; 42-46), “The Lord said to my [David's] Lord: ‘Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool’” Of course, Jesus was not to stop being at the right hand of the Father at any point. So the word until here does not mean a change of status. Psalm 72:7, a messianic Psalm, says that in his days “peace will abound until the moon is no more.” Again, the power of the Messiah is not to stop when the moon no longer gives its light (Mt.24:29). In 2 Samuel 6:23 that David's wife Michal had no son until the day of her death. Of course, she did not have one after that either! In Mt.11:23, our Lord says that if the miracles done in Capernaum had been done in Sodom, “it would have lasted until the present day.” Had it lasted, Jesus did not intend to destroy it in His time. In Mt 28:20, Jesus promised to be with His Church, His followers until the end of the world, does that mean He will desert us in eternity. In Romans 8:22, St. Paul says that all creation groans, waiting for the revelation of the sons of God until Paul’s day. Nor did it stop then, that will continue until the restoration at the end. In 1 Timothy 4:13, the Apostle tells Timothy to devote himself to reading, exhortation and teaching “until I come.” He did not mean Timothy should stop such things when Paul did come. There are more, but these should be more than enough to show that not always does until in OT and NT, mean a change of things is to come at the point referred to.
Jesus is called firstborn in Luke 2:7 (and also in Mt 1:25, if we take the Vulgate addition to the Greek). This reflects Hebrew bekor, which chiefly expressed the privileged position of the firstborn among other children. It need not imply there were actually others. We can see this from a Greek tomb inscription at Tel el Yaoudieh (cf. Biblica 11, 1930, 369-90) for a mother who died in childbirth: “In the pain of delivering my firstborn child, destiny brought me to the end of life.
There are no solid evidences in Scripture that Our Lady had other children. The decisive reason is the teaching of the Church. The most ancient creeds all call her aei-parthenos = “Ever-virgin.”
According to Papias [AD second century] – “Mary, the mother of the Lord; Mary, the wife of Cleophas or Alpheus, who was the mother of James the bishop and apostle, and of Simon and Thaddeus, and of one Joseph; Mary Salome, wife of Zebedee, mother of John the evangelist and James; Mary Magdalene. These four are found in the Gospel. James and Judas and Joseph were sons of an aunt of the Lord’s. James also and John were sons of another aunt of the Lord’s. Mary, mother of James the less and Joseph, wife of Alpheus, was the sister of Mary, the mother of the Lord, whom John names of Cleophas, either from her father or from the family of the clan, or for some other reason. Mary Salome is called Salome either from her husband or her village. Some affirm that she is the same as Mary of Cleophas, because she had two husbands” (The Fragments of Papias).
Rather than using the word “brothers” it would be more accurate to use the word “brethren.” Any way you look at it, Mary, the mother of Jesus, had only one child natural child. The rest of us are her children by adoption.
© 2004 – Victor R. Claveau
Part or all of this article may be reproduced without obtaining permission as long as the author is cited.
"For as a virgin she conceived,
as a virgin she gave birth,
a virgin she remained."
-St. Augustine: Sermons, 52. (5th cent.)
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now that their is funny...
how exactly would you have been saved without Mary?
I disagree. 1. A virgin wed to an aged man could and 2. There is no evidence in the Bible she wasn't a virgin even after the birth of Jesus. Why this is impossible after the Incarnation doesn't make a lot of sense. It doesn't make a lot of sense either to have another child after you just gave birth to the Son of God.
I believe that Mary was a Godly woman and had sex with Joseph after Jesus' birth. But the verse you quote is a translation. The original language for "until" has a very specific sequence which means up until and has no linguistic value for the future. Looking at all of the evidence in the Bible, taking into account the original language, the Bible does not say either way if Mary was ever virgin or not.
Without tradition, there is no meaningful salvation difference between ever virgin and not. Logically, I would relate a virgin wife to a fig tree that doesn't bear fruit. It's just wrong.
Why would Mary ask the Angel how the birth of Jesus was to come about because she did not “know†man? Obviously, she knew the biological part of having a child and she was already espoused to Joseph. Even if she didn’t know the actual biological part of the equation every child or young adult knows that children result from marriage. This question/conversation only makes sense unless Mary was a virgin and planning on continuing to be one.
I’m just pointing to the fact that she was just a vessel. She is in no way an advocate between me and God, as many believe.
You're claiming that Mary bore no fruit. Yes, that IS just wrong.
“And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.” - Matt 1
“7And she gave birth to her firstborn son and wrapped him in swaddling cloths and laid him in a manger, because there was no place for them in the inn.” - Luke 2
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.” - Matt 12
31 Then His brothers and His mother came, and standing outside they sent to Him, calling Him. 32 And a multitude was sitting around Him; and they said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are outside seeking You.” 33 But He answered them, saying, “Who is My mother, or My brothers?” 34 And He looked around in a circle at those who sat about Him, and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” - Mark 3
19 Then His mother and brothers came to Him, and could not approach Him because of the crowd. 20 And it was told Him by some, who said, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You.” 21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” - Luke 8
“After this He went down to Capernaum, He, His mother, His brothers, and His disciples; and they did not stay there many days.” - John 2
“All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers.” - Acts 1
“But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother.” - Galatians 1
Basic scripture interpretation rules - assume the text means what it says, unless there is reason to believe otherwise.
There is no place in the NT where Mary is said to be a perpetual virgin, so the only texts we have by people who knew her indicates she had more children.
There were Greek words for brother, and cousin, and the writers of the NT used both words where appropriate. There were also words for kin, to indicate someone who was related but not a brother or sister, and it wasn’t used.
Now that's just silly. Mary added nothing unique to Jesus' birth or life. She was of David's line and a virgin. There were plenty of other woman who would have filled that position just fine.
That's like saying how can you cook pizza without a microwave. You use an oven or a toaster oven or even a stove top. The microwave adds no nutritional value to the pizza.
Other than Jesus, there is no person in the Bible could could not have been replaced.
You might as well ask how we would be saved without Pontius Pilate.
Mary was bewildered because an Angel was telling her she would have a child. That is a bit out of the ordinary...one normally waits for the rabbit to die, or the dot to change colors.
I think she figured out the birth wasn’t going to be via normal relations with Joseph.
So your mother added nothing unique to your birth or life?
Looking at the beginning of Matthew, the lineage of Jesus went through Hezekiah, Mannaseh, Josiah, etc. If Hezekiah had not been granted the additional years, there would have been no Mannaseh. So I am sure God would have found some other way to fulfill His promise to us all through the prophets.
The fruit I was talking about was sexual relations with her husband. If she was ever virgin, her wedding vows would seem hollow. Why would she marry a man but never consecrate it? Wouldn't it be better to remain unmarried? Never having sex with Joseph makes a mockery out of their wedding and turns Joseph from a married man into a tool. So did Mary really marry Joseph or only use him?
You claim there is no historical evidence of siblings, then spend many paragraphs constructing tortured arguments against the evidence that does exist, circumstantial as it is.
In contrast, there really is not one atom of evidence of Mary’s perpetual virginity. For some reason the Catholic Church has clung to this cherished belief since long before everday people could read scripture for themselves. Now I believe they can’t find a graceful way around it.
And as someone else pointed out, what does it really have to do with anything? Frankly, who cares? Jesus saves me. To Him I look and to no other.
This is refuted in the original posting.
Ouch! I've never seen God's plan reduced to such relativism...
With that attitude, it's kinda surprising Jesus bothered "hanging around the lady" for 30+ years while only spending 3+ with His apostles..
and performed His first miracle of His ministry at her request..
and used one of His last Human breathes exclaiming, "Behold your mother"..
In fact, it seems clear she was very important to Him..
I am only flawed man. Jesus was true man and true God. Mary added nothing to the true God aspect of Jesus. It is because of the true God aspect of Jesus that we have salvation. To say that our salvation depends on Mary is just plain silly. Might as well say our salvation depends on Pontius Pilate.
She consented to bring Him into this world, to raise Him.
You mean, “But Mt. 27:56, says at the cross were Mary the mother of James and Joseph. Mark 15:40 says Mary the mother of James the younger and Joses was there. So, although the proof is not conclusive, it seems that – unless we suppose these were others with the same names, that the first two, James and Joseph (Joses) had a mother other than the Mother of Jesus. Therefore the term brother was used for those who were not sons of Mary the Mother of Jesus.”?
Lets see - assume your case, and call it proven. That makes life simple for the author.
So important that He never called her “Mother”?
Apart from the ones I quoted earlier, here are the other encounters of Jesus and His mother:
One woman sought to give honor to Mary:
“While he was speaking, a woman from the crowd called out and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that carried you and the breasts at which you nursed.” He replied, “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” — Luke 11
Rather than saying, “Indeed, Blessed is She, the Theotokos, the unshakable hope, ever vigilant in intercession and protection, Mother of life!”, Jesus replies, “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” The NAB footnotes say, “Rather, it emphasizes (like Luke 2:35) that attentiveness to God’s word is more important than biological relationship to Jesus.”
There is the Wedding at Cana:
1 On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. 2 Now both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding.
3 And when they ran out of wine, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.” 4 Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.”
6 Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of purification of the Jews, containing twenty or thirty gallons apiece. 7 Jesus said to them, “Fill the waterpots with water.”...You have kept the good wine until now!”...12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He, His mother, His brothers, and His disciples; and they did not stay there many days. — John 2
The Catholic footnote in the NAB: “4 [4] This verse may seek to show that Jesus did not work miracles to help his family and friends, as in the apocryphal gospels. Woman: a normal, polite form of address, but unattested in reference to one’s mother. Cf also John 19:26. How does your concern affect me?: literally, “What is this to me and to you?”—a Hebrew expression of either hostility (Judges 11:12; 2 Chron 35:21; 1 Kings 17:18) or denial of common interest (Hosea 14:9; 2 Kings 3:13). Cf Mark 1:24; 5:7 used by demons to Jesus. My hour has not yet come: the translation as a question (”Has not my hour now come?”), while preferable grammatically and supported by Greek Fathers, seems unlikely from a comparison with John 7:6, 30. The “hour” is that of Jesus’ passion, death, resurrection, and ascension (John 13:1).”
And finally, we have the scene at the cross:
25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. — John 19
He cares for her, even in his agony - but he doesn’t exactly exalt her, does he? He STILL doesn’t call her “Mother”!
Without Jesus, there would be no salvation. Without Mary, there would have been someone else. Without Pontius Pilate, there would have been someone else. Without any of the Apostles, there would have been someone else. I am saved by Jesus' sacrifice. Everyone else is simple detail.
I am not saying that I don't honor the apostles, prophets, or Mary. I just don't rely on them or thank them for my salvation. They had their part to fulfill in God's plan, but it was God's plan and God's sacrifice that mattered and matters.
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