Posted on 11/03/2009 9:42:30 AM PST by GonzoII
now that their is funny...
how exactly would you have been saved without Mary?
I disagree. 1. A virgin wed to an aged man could and 2. There is no evidence in the Bible she wasn't a virgin even after the birth of Jesus. Why this is impossible after the Incarnation doesn't make a lot of sense. It doesn't make a lot of sense either to have another child after you just gave birth to the Son of God.
I believe that Mary was a Godly woman and had sex with Joseph after Jesus' birth. But the verse you quote is a translation. The original language for "until" has a very specific sequence which means up until and has no linguistic value for the future. Looking at all of the evidence in the Bible, taking into account the original language, the Bible does not say either way if Mary was ever virgin or not.
Without tradition, there is no meaningful salvation difference between ever virgin and not. Logically, I would relate a virgin wife to a fig tree that doesn't bear fruit. It's just wrong.
Why would Mary ask the Angel how the birth of Jesus was to come about because she did not “know†man? Obviously, she knew the biological part of having a child and she was already espoused to Joseph. Even if she didn’t know the actual biological part of the equation every child or young adult knows that children result from marriage. This question/conversation only makes sense unless Mary was a virgin and planning on continuing to be one.
I’m just pointing to the fact that she was just a vessel. She is in no way an advocate between me and God, as many believe.
You're claiming that Mary bore no fruit. Yes, that IS just wrong.
“And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.” - Matt 1
“7And she gave birth to her firstborn son and wrapped him in swaddling cloths and laid him in a manger, because there was no place for them in the inn.” - Luke 2
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.” - Matt 12
31 Then His brothers and His mother came, and standing outside they sent to Him, calling Him. 32 And a multitude was sitting around Him; and they said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are outside seeking You.” 33 But He answered them, saying, “Who is My mother, or My brothers?” 34 And He looked around in a circle at those who sat about Him, and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” - Mark 3
19 Then His mother and brothers came to Him, and could not approach Him because of the crowd. 20 And it was told Him by some, who said, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You.” 21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” - Luke 8
“After this He went down to Capernaum, He, His mother, His brothers, and His disciples; and they did not stay there many days.” - John 2
“All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers.” - Acts 1
“But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother.” - Galatians 1
Basic scripture interpretation rules - assume the text means what it says, unless there is reason to believe otherwise.
There is no place in the NT where Mary is said to be a perpetual virgin, so the only texts we have by people who knew her indicates she had more children.
There were Greek words for brother, and cousin, and the writers of the NT used both words where appropriate. There were also words for kin, to indicate someone who was related but not a brother or sister, and it wasn’t used.
Now that's just silly. Mary added nothing unique to Jesus' birth or life. She was of David's line and a virgin. There were plenty of other woman who would have filled that position just fine.
That's like saying how can you cook pizza without a microwave. You use an oven or a toaster oven or even a stove top. The microwave adds no nutritional value to the pizza.
Other than Jesus, there is no person in the Bible could could not have been replaced.
You might as well ask how we would be saved without Pontius Pilate.
Mary was bewildered because an Angel was telling her she would have a child. That is a bit out of the ordinary...one normally waits for the rabbit to die, or the dot to change colors.
I think she figured out the birth wasn’t going to be via normal relations with Joseph.
So your mother added nothing unique to your birth or life?
Looking at the beginning of Matthew, the lineage of Jesus went through Hezekiah, Mannaseh, Josiah, etc. If Hezekiah had not been granted the additional years, there would have been no Mannaseh. So I am sure God would have found some other way to fulfill His promise to us all through the prophets.
The fruit I was talking about was sexual relations with her husband. If she was ever virgin, her wedding vows would seem hollow. Why would she marry a man but never consecrate it? Wouldn't it be better to remain unmarried? Never having sex with Joseph makes a mockery out of their wedding and turns Joseph from a married man into a tool. So did Mary really marry Joseph or only use him?
You claim there is no historical evidence of siblings, then spend many paragraphs constructing tortured arguments against the evidence that does exist, circumstantial as it is.
In contrast, there really is not one atom of evidence of Mary’s perpetual virginity. For some reason the Catholic Church has clung to this cherished belief since long before everday people could read scripture for themselves. Now I believe they can’t find a graceful way around it.
And as someone else pointed out, what does it really have to do with anything? Frankly, who cares? Jesus saves me. To Him I look and to no other.
This is refuted in the original posting.
Ouch! I've never seen God's plan reduced to such relativism...
With that attitude, it's kinda surprising Jesus bothered "hanging around the lady" for 30+ years while only spending 3+ with His apostles..
and performed His first miracle of His ministry at her request..
and used one of His last Human breathes exclaiming, "Behold your mother"..
In fact, it seems clear she was very important to Him..
I am only flawed man. Jesus was true man and true God. Mary added nothing to the true God aspect of Jesus. It is because of the true God aspect of Jesus that we have salvation. To say that our salvation depends on Mary is just plain silly. Might as well say our salvation depends on Pontius Pilate.
She consented to bring Him into this world, to raise Him.
You mean, “But Mt. 27:56, says at the cross were Mary the mother of James and Joseph. Mark 15:40 says Mary the mother of James the younger and Joses was there. So, although the proof is not conclusive, it seems that – unless we suppose these were others with the same names, that the first two, James and Joseph (Joses) had a mother other than the Mother of Jesus. Therefore the term brother was used for those who were not sons of Mary the Mother of Jesus.”?
Lets see - assume your case, and call it proven. That makes life simple for the author.
So important that He never called her “Mother”?
Apart from the ones I quoted earlier, here are the other encounters of Jesus and His mother:
One woman sought to give honor to Mary:
“While he was speaking, a woman from the crowd called out and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that carried you and the breasts at which you nursed.” He replied, “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” — Luke 11
Rather than saying, “Indeed, Blessed is She, the Theotokos, the unshakable hope, ever vigilant in intercession and protection, Mother of life!”, Jesus replies, “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” The NAB footnotes say, “Rather, it emphasizes (like Luke 2:35) that attentiveness to God’s word is more important than biological relationship to Jesus.”
There is the Wedding at Cana:
1 On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. 2 Now both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding.
3 And when they ran out of wine, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.” 4 Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.”
6 Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of purification of the Jews, containing twenty or thirty gallons apiece. 7 Jesus said to them, “Fill the waterpots with water.”...You have kept the good wine until now!”...12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He, His mother, His brothers, and His disciples; and they did not stay there many days. — John 2
The Catholic footnote in the NAB: “4 [4] This verse may seek to show that Jesus did not work miracles to help his family and friends, as in the apocryphal gospels. Woman: a normal, polite form of address, but unattested in reference to one’s mother. Cf also John 19:26. How does your concern affect me?: literally, “What is this to me and to you?”—a Hebrew expression of either hostility (Judges 11:12; 2 Chron 35:21; 1 Kings 17:18) or denial of common interest (Hosea 14:9; 2 Kings 3:13). Cf Mark 1:24; 5:7 used by demons to Jesus. My hour has not yet come: the translation as a question (”Has not my hour now come?”), while preferable grammatically and supported by Greek Fathers, seems unlikely from a comparison with John 7:6, 30. The “hour” is that of Jesus’ passion, death, resurrection, and ascension (John 13:1).”
And finally, we have the scene at the cross:
25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. — John 19
He cares for her, even in his agony - but he doesn’t exactly exalt her, does he? He STILL doesn’t call her “Mother”!
Without Jesus, there would be no salvation. Without Mary, there would have been someone else. Without Pontius Pilate, there would have been someone else. Without any of the Apostles, there would have been someone else. I am saved by Jesus' sacrifice. Everyone else is simple detail.
I am not saying that I don't honor the apostles, prophets, or Mary. I just don't rely on them or thank them for my salvation. They had their part to fulfill in God's plan, but it was God's plan and God's sacrifice that mattered and matters.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.