Are We Living in the Last Days?

cerc ^ | Carl Olson

[Matchett-PI]

Oops! Bad link in #20. Try this: http://www.tektonics.org/eschhub.html

[MrLee]

We disagree.

[Lee N. Field]

Ping to keep an eye on this thread.

[Jacquerie]

Interpretation of the Bible gave humanity the Natural Law, without which unalienable rights and our Constitution could not exist.

[j_k_l]

Originally written in 2001, this article is still, probably even more valid today.

Yup. Just think if someone digs it up in 3001, it will really seem more valid.

[maine-iac7]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aPNcUJuiLY&feature=PlayList&p=37E0D24A0FBEF630&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=24

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y4EiFeTQ3s&feature=related

[Tax-chick]

If we are, what would I do differently?

[Tax-chick]

Spend more than $2.97 for a bottle of wine. Buy “Miami Vice” on DVD. Stop going to Weight Watchers.

[boatbums]

I don't know of anyone who says the “rapture” will be a secret event. The sudden disappearance of hundreds of millions of people is kind of hard to hide. It will require an explanation (a lie) that will take strong delusion to be believed. A perfect intro’ for the Antichrist (the real one) who will bring calm to the billions of people left “freaking out” over what could have happened to all those people.

[Lee N. Field]

Many "prophecy teachers," especially in the last three decades, have taken passages of Scripture and applied them to current events and people with little or no regard for historical context or original meaning of the texts. This has resulted, for example, in the Antichrist being identified as the Pope, Hitler, Gorbachev, Ronald Reagan, Saddam Hussein, and other, lesser-known people.

The puzzling and sometimes shocking images of Revelation are interpreted in clever, bizarre, and often laughable ways. The mark of the beast (Rev. 13:16-18) is seen in bar codes, credit cards, computer chips and laser beams. Most Catholics who encounter such misinterpretations usually scratch their heads and steer clear of the biblical books that deal with apocalyptic themes, Daniel and Revelation. They are content to let their non-Catholic friends battle over these confusing matters.

It might be interesting, if I had "Abundant Free Time", to go and look at dispensational end times literature from generations past, and see who the identified players were.

The details of the model mutate constantly, as technologies come and go, Antichrist candidates get old, and retire and/or die, and governments come and go.

Many of them believe the Catholic Church will play a central role in a coming one world apostate religion.

Yes and no. I checked various editions of the Scofield Reference Bible once, on the subject. They vary, as to whether the RCC is the Whore 'o Babylon or not.

Moreover, many Catholics who leave the Church are drawn towards groups that teach dispensationalism in some form or another. The belief in the Rapture is often what attracts these straying Catholics.

Which is kind of strange to me. Why in the world would that be? The reason they should be would be soteriology and worship.

I am a died in the wool Protestant, whose not finding a whole lot to quibble with in this article.

"This 'family of God' is gradually formed and takes shape during the stages of human history, in keeping with the Father's plan. In fact, 'already present in figure at the beginning of the world, this Church was prepared in marvelous fashion in the history of the people of Israel . . . . Established in this last age of the world and made manifest in the outpouring of the Spirit, it will be brought to glorious completion at the end of time'"

Compare and contrast this classic Protestant catechism:"Q. 54.What believest thou concerning the "holy catholic church" of Christ?

"A.That the Son of God from the beginning to the end of the world, gathers, defends, and preserves to himself by his Spirit and word, out of the whole human race, a church chosen to everlasting life, agreeing in true faith; and that I am and forever shall remain, a living member thereof. "

It is true that some of the early Church Fathers before the fourth century believed in an earthly, millennial reign of Christ.

Not universally, and millenarianism tended to be coupled with a view of the intermediate state that modern Christians would find unusual. The old guys didn't fit modern categories.

A common misconception is that Catholics interpret Scripture — especially the book of Revelation — "symbolically," while Evangelicals interpret it "literally."

G. K. Beale has a lecture here (Preaching Apocalyptic Texts, Third Bible and Ministry Conference, Calvin Theological Seminary) where he argues for exegetical reasons that the Apocalypse must be interpreted symbolically.

[topcat54]

Many "prophecy teachers," especially in the last three decades, have taken passages of Scripture and applied them to current events and people with little or no regard for historical context or original meaning of the texts.

I taught a SS class today on chapter 9 of James Sire's book, The Universe Next Door. The topic was postmodernism and I was struck by how futurist dispensationalism exhibits a distinctively postmodern approach to theology (eschatology). Postmodernist architecture was an attempt to break up the utilitarian lines of the modernists by adding frills and flourishes from that past without any regard to the original context. A column here, an arch there. Add it in just for the sake of being different. Ignore the original purpose. It isn't important.

Dispensationalism was built on a break from the past. The confessions and creeds of the historic church were ignored. Making a connection with church fathers was not important. Only recently has there been an attempt to make a link to the past in order to legitimize their errant views. But is is like adding a column to a building for no apparent purpose other than to be different. It does not work for folks that understand what is really going on.

[Lee N. Field]

G. K. Beale has a lecture here (Preaching Apocalyptic Texts, Third Bible and Ministry Conference, Calvin Theological Seminary) where he argues for exegetical reasons that the Apocalypse must be interpreted symbolically.

Full text available here (pdf).

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

Depends on which “last days” you are referring.

[Campion]

The Catholic Church acknowledges that the Book of Hebrews was written to the Hebrews.

It was written to the Jewish Christian converts in and around Jerusalem shortly before the Roman-Jewish war of AD 66-73.

[Iscool]

Who do you think gave you the Bible?

God did...

[Iscool]

It was written to the Jewish Christian converts in and around Jerusalem shortly before the Roman-Jewish war of AD 66-73.

You mean the 'church'...It was written to the church...Maybe you can explain then why Paul addressed those other epistles to the various churches instead of to the Gentiles...

[dmz]

If we are, what would I do differently?
_______

I kind of like Bruce Cockburn’s take on this in his song “Last Night of the World” ...

If this were the last night of the world
what would I do?
what would I do that was different
unless it was champagne
with you

and I’m sure you’d be wonderful company tax-chick, the you would likely be my wife instead of you, if that’s OK by you :-)

[Jaded]

The Great Tribulation by David Chilton.

[ctdonath2]

Meh. People have been asking that question for 2000 years, each time with “really, THIS time it’s DIFFERENT!”

No, and it’s not.

[ET(end tyranny)]

I think its possible that the 'rapture' might be misunderstood? Could it really be the removal of the tares/wicked ones?

First I noticed some variances with the following verses, depending on which bible a person uses.

Luke 17 (KJV)
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The verse in question is 37. I did a search on the word eagles. Got this.

From the Greek
105 aetos ah-et-os'
1) an eagle: since eagles do not usually go in quest of carrion, this may apply to a vulture that resembles an eagle
2) an eagle as a standard (Roman Military)

Ok... so why the mention of carrion? So, I checked other bibles.

Luke 17 (NIV)
37"Where, Lord?" they asked. He replied, "Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather."

Luke 17 (NASB)
37 And answering they said to Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said to them, "Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered."

Luke 17 (AMP)
37Then they asked Him, Where, Lord? He said to them, Wherever the dead body is, there will the vultures or eagles be gathered together.

Luke 17 (NLT)
37"Lord, where will this happen?" the disciples asked. Jesus replied, "Just as the gathering of vultures shows there is a carcass nearby, so these signs indicate that the end is near."[1]
Footnotes
1. 17:37 Greek Wherever the carcass is, the vultures gather.

Luke 17 (WE)
37 They asked him, `Where will this be, Lord?' He said, `The big birds that eat meat will go to the place where the dead body is.'

So, let's look at some parallel verses from Matthew.

Matthew 24 (KJV)
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

It seems that corpse and vultures would be the more proper reading. Notice that in verse 39, the wicked who perished in the flood are described as being taken away. The wicked are taken first, not the righteous. Next, it tells us that it shall be exactly the same at the arrival of Messiah. In days of Noah, those taken first perished, and so it will be again at the arrival of Messiah. The answer given by Yehoshua refers to the vultures gathering over the bodies of the wicked, those taken first, which are all slain as the Messiah arrives.

Now, let's look at the tares and wheat:

Matthew 13 (KJV)
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Yehoshua then explains the parable in detail to His disciples:

Matthew 13
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Notice the timing of events described, and how it compares with those taken first in Matthew 24:39-42. At the end of the world, when the time for the harvest of humanity has come, it is not the righteous who are gathered first, it is the wicked! The wicked are taken and dealt with first, while the people of YHWH are still among them.

Now, read Luke 17:26-30.

Luke 17 (KJV)
26   And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27   They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28   Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29   But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30   Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Sudden destruction comes upon the wicked at the arrival of Messiah. They will all perish.

Revelation 3 (all the following are from the KJV)
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Revelation 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Revelation 22
7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Revelation 22
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Revelation 22
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

You can't surprise the wicked if you take away the righteous first. Messiah is supposed to come quickly, like a thief in the night, so people are to repent, live righteously and be watchful, lest they be caught by surprise. If you remove the righteous first, the wicked are going to notice and not be surprised.

Revelation 16 shows the last seven plagues being poured out on the unrepentant wicked of the earth. Through verse 12 the first six of the plagues are poured out, and then in verse 15-

Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Messiah has not come yet at the time of the sixth plague! Notice that the seventh plague then falls in verse 17-

Revelation 16 (KJV)
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

At the time the seventh plague is announcing the time for earth has come to an end, and the arrival of Messiah follows. So, Messiah does not come to earth until after all seven plagues have been poured out on the wicked. The faithful are not removed at any point prior to these plagues, they have endured them without fear of being affected by them.

Psalm 91 (JPS)
5 Thou shalt not be afraid of the terror by night, nor of the arrow that flieth by day;
6 Of the pestilence that walketh in darkness, nor of the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
7 A thousand may fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; it shall not come nigh thee.
8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold, and see the recompense of the wicked.
9 For thou hast made YHWH who is my refuge, even the Most High, thy habitation.
10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy tent.
11 For He will give His angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

Proverbs 10:30   The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.

From what I read, there is no foundation for a pre-trib rapture or removal of the righteous at all.

I think the tribulation is the judgement. No one escapes the judgement.

Matthew 16
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rewards aren't given prior, they are given after.

Psalm 37 (JPS)
9 For evil-doers shall be cut off; but those that wait for YHWH, they shall inherit the land.
20 For the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of YHWH shall be as the fat of lambs -- they shall pass away in smoke, they shall pass away.
22 For such as are blessed of Him shall inherit the land; and they that are cursed of Him shall be cut off.
23 It is of YHWH that a man's goings are established; and He delighted in his way.
24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down; for YHWH upholdeth his hand.
27 Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore.
28 For YHWH loveth justice, and forsaketh not His saints; they are preserved for ever; but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.
32 The wicked watcheth the righteous, and seeketh to slay him.
33 YHWH will not leave him in his hand, nor suffer him to be condemned when he is judged.
34 Wait for YHWH, and keep His way, and He will exalt thee to inherit the land; when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.
38 But transgressors shall be destroyed together; the future of the wicked shall be cut off.
39 But the salvation of the righteous is of YHWH; He is their stronghold in the time of trouble.
40 And YHWH helpeth them, and delivereth them; He delivereth them from the wicked, and saveth them, because they have taken refuge in Him.

YHWH is the deliverer, and the saviour.
Isaiah 47:4 - Our Redeemer, YHWH of hosts is His name, The Holy One of Israel.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Alive and remain. This indicates that some are dead and gone already. (The wicked)

It might be that during this period of being caught up in the air, is when the new earth and heaven are created.