Posted on 08/23/2009 2:52:54 PM PDT by NYer
Meh. People have been asking that question for 2000 years, each time with “really, THIS time it’s DIFFERENT!”
I'm re-reading Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History now. There's one point where Eusebius (from the early fourth century) quotes something written by someone during a persecution going on about mid-second century. They were sure, then, that the return was immanent. Any time now.
Look at the 14th Century. The Black Death (which most were convinced was sent by God Himself as punishment) wiped out huge percentages of the population, the Hundred Years war between England and France killed thousands more and destroyed much of France, on top of this there was political turmoil throughout Europe and famine was widespread.
The people were CONVINCED that this was the end because NEVER before in history had so many things happened at once. Yet, within less than a century all of this was forgotten and the Renaissance followed by the Reformation changed the face of Europe forever.
I'm not entirely convinced that Paul wrote Hebrews. It's different in many ways from the self-attributed Pauline epistles.
But the answer to your question is that he wasn't writing to "the Gentiles" in general, but to the Christians (mostly of Gentile origin) in particular places.
Hebrews is essentially a sermon, explaining to the Jewish Christian believers that the Christian covenant is superior to the Mosaic one, so they shouldn't be tempted to return to Judaism even when they see the most sacred places of Judaism under attack.
So, the faith of the Jewish Christians is different than the faith that Jesus lived his whole life and instructed others to live?
Yes, that's perfectly fine. I'm sure my husband would prefer that, as well.
The song raises an interesting point, though: if you're going to have champagne for the end the world, and we don't know when the end is going to arrive, we have to have champagne every night!
Not that there's anything bad about that ...
No, the faith of Jewish Christians is the faith that Jesus died for, that he told his disciples was coming, that is explained in the Book of Hebrews, the New Covenant replacing the Old, old things passing away, punctuated by the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.
Except that the old covenant didn’t pass away, it was renewed. He said he didn’t come to abolish, and that not one jot or tittle from the law would pass away.
Also James called Paul in and James, Peter and John told Paul to go purify himself with other vow takers, to show the Gentiles that he still abided by the LAWS. And this was 30 years AFTER THE CROSS.
Where??? When??? When the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD and the priests were slaughtered, there was no sacrificial system left to execute the Mosaic Law. The message of the Gospel was telling the Jews that Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of the OT -- the Mosaic sacrificial system and the prophecies.
He said he didn’t come to abolish
Right, He said that He came to fulfill and that He did.
and not one jot or tittle of the law would pass away
Right, and we have all those jots and tittles in our Bibles, the same jots and tittles that Jesus came to fulfill and did fulfill -- though there are some still remaining to fulfill at this second coming.
They were to use prayer instead of sacrificial offerings.
Right, He said that He came to fulfill and that He did.
No, he didn't. He said when all was fulfilled heaven and earth would pass away. They haven't, thus all has NOT been fulfilled.
Right, and we have all those jots and tittles in our Bibles, the same jots and tittles that Jesus came to fulfill and did fulfill -- though there are some still remaining to fulfill at this second coming.
Now, you are contradicting yourself! Did he fulfill everything or not?
teach
from the Greek
3100 matheteuo math-ayt-yoo'-o from 3101; intransitively, to become a pupil; transitively, to disciple, i.e. enrol as scholar:--be disciple, instruct, teach.
1) to be a disciple of one
a) to follow his precepts and instructions
2) to make a disciple
a) to teach, instruct
nations
from the Greek
1484 ethnos eth'-nos probably from 1486; a race (as of the same habit), i.e. a tribe; specially, a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually, by implication, pagan):--Gentile, heathen, nation, people.
1) a multitude (whether of men or of beasts) associated or living together
a) a company, troop, swarm
2) a multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus
a) the human family
3) a tribe, nation, people group
4) in the OT, foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans, Gentiles
5) Paul uses the term for Gentile Christians
Notice that it is pagans and Gentiles that are to be taught. The Jews already know the doctrines,
precepts and commandments which apply to them. The Jews were/are to be a 'light unto the nations'.
teaching
from the Greek
1321 didasko did-as'-ko a prolonged (causative) form of a primary verb dao (to learn); to teach (in the same broad application):--teach.
1) to teach
a) to hold discourse with others in order to instruct them, deliver didactic discourses
b) to be a teacher
c) to discharge the office of a teacher, conduct one's self as a teacher
2) to teach one
a) to impart instruction
b) instill doctrine into one
c) the thing taught or enjoined
d) to explain or expound a thing
f) to teach one something
Jesus' disciples and Apostles were to teach all Gentiles in all nations to observe the doctrines and precepts as commanded by Jesus, which was verified to the Jerusalem Council by the Holy Spirit
Acts 15
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Acts 15 occured AFTER the crucifixtion.
observe
from the Greek
5083 tereo tay-reh'-o from teros (a watch; perhaps akin to 2334); to guard (from loss or injury, properly, by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from 5442, which is properly to prevent escaping; and from 2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus), i.e. to note (a prophecy; figuratively, to fulfil a command); by implication, to detain (in custody; figuratively, to maintain); by extension, to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively, to keep unmarried); by extension, to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively, to keep unmarried):--hold fast, keep(- er), (pre-, re-)serve, watch.
1) to attend to carefully, take care of
a) to guard
b) metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is
c) to observe
d) to reserve: to undergo something
John 14
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Jesus intended the Gentiles of the world learn "Apostolic doctrines" as it existed then and which the early church "steadfastly continued in according to Acts 2:42", or was he referring to Greek Catholic doctrines, Reformation doctrines, or Protestant doctrines which would be created much later? That shouldn't be hard to figure out.
Acts 2
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Remember that Hegesippus records that the Law and Prophets were taught until all the Apostles died off.:
... Up to that period the Church had remained like a virgin pure and uncorrupted: for, if there were any persons who were disposed to tamper with the wholesome rule of the preaching of salvation,11 they still lurked in some dark place of concealment or other. But, when the sacred band of apostles had in various ways closed their lives, and that generation of men to whom it had been vouchsafed to listen to the Godlike Wisdom with their own ears had passed away, then did the confederacy of godless error take its rise through the treachery of false teachers, who, seeing that none of the apostles any longer survived, at length attempted with bare and uplifted head to oppose the preaching of the truth by preaching "knowledge falsely so called."On my arrival at Rome, I drew up a list of the succession of bishops down to Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. To Anicetus succeeded Soter, and after him came Eleutherus. But in the case of every succession,14 and in every city, the state of affairs is in accordance with the teaching of the Law and of the Prophets and of the Lord....
Therefore was the Church called a virgin, for she was not as yet corrupted by worthless teaching.15 Thebulis it was who, displeased because he was not made bishop, first began to corrupt her by stealth. . . . Each of these leaders in his own private and distinct capacity brought in his own private opinion. From these have come false Christs, false prophets, false apostles-men who have split up the one Church into parts16 through their corrupting doctrines, uttered in disparagement of God and of His Christ....
Show me where Scripture says that???
No, he didn't. He said when all was fulfilled heaven and earth would pass away. They haven't, thus all has NOT been fulfilled. Now, you are contradicting yourself! Did he fulfill everything or not?
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law and the prophets, but to fulfill. For verily I say to you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot and one tittle shall in no way pass from the law till all is fulfilled." [Mt 5:17-18]
Note what "all" is referring to: the law and the prophets. The Law was fulfilled but the prophets were not. Some of their prophecies still remain to be fulfilled. That's why heaven and earth have not passed away yet.
Show me where Scripture says that???
Jeremiah 7
22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.
Hosea 3
4 For the children of Israel shall sit solitary many days without king, and without prince, and without sacrifice, and without pillar, and without ephod or teraphim;
5 afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek YHWH their God, and David their king; and shall come trembling unto YHWH and to His goodness in the end of days.
Hosea 6
6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Hosea 14
2 Take with you words, and return unto YHWH; say unto Him: 'Forgive all iniquity, and accept that which is good; so will we render for bullocks the offering of our lips.
Psalm 51
16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
1 Samuel 15:22
And Samuel said: 'Hath YHWH as great delight in burnt-offerings and sacrifices, as in hearkening to the voice of YHWH? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
Psalm 40
6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
Micah 6
6 'Wherewith shall I come before YHWH, and bow myself before God on high? Shall I come before Him with burnt-offerings, with calves of a year old?
7 Will YHWH be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?'
8 It hath been told thee, O man, what is good, and what YHWH doth require of thee: only to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God.
Throughout the Jewish scriptures, the prophets declared that repentance and charity are more pleasing to God for atonement than a blood sacrifice. I think there is good indication that sacrifices were never meant to be. Jeremiah 7:22-24. But, since they were utilized, against YHWH's wishes, I think sacrifices were to be replaced with PRAYER! Hosea 14:2.
Notice also the verse about how YHWH doesn't require the sacrifice of a firstborn for the transgression of sin -- atonement! SPEAKS VOLUMES.
Jeremiah 31:2 Thus saith YHWH: the people that were left of the sword have found grace in the wilderness, even Israel, when I go to cause him to rest.
God promises the descendants of Israel who, through captivity, exile, and intermarriage with Gentiles became assimilated and inculturated Gentiles today that they will find "grace in the wilderness".
The exile mentioned in Isaiah
From the JPS (1917) Jewish Bible Tanakh
8 In full measure, when Thou sendest her away, Thou dost contend with her; He hath removed her with His rough blast in the day of the east wind.
9 Therefore by this shall the iniquity of Jacob be expiated, and this is all the fruit of taking away his sin: when he maketh all the stones of the altar as chalkstones that are beaten in pieces, so that the Asherim and the sun-images shall rise no more.
Their exile was their atonement.
So then the whole of the Mosaic Law reduced itself to these four things for the Gentile converts???? How come Paul and Peter and John and James don't reiterate these things in their letters??? Is it possible that they realized that, other than fornication, the other three were uniquely a Jewish imposition that were not to be carried over from the OT to the New.
They prayed in the OT, didn't they??? and they still had the animal sacrifices.
Maybe for the same reason that only the book of Matthew reports on the resurrection of the saints marching through Jerusalem. Why didn't Mark, Luke, John, Peter, or Paul write about the dead bodies of the saints marching through Jerusalem, appearing unto many?
It isn’t that difficult really. They weren’t meant to sacrifice animals. They brought that tradition back from their Babylonian captivity, which is why God speaks against it so often.
Just like with Christianity, Judaism had it breaks, those that believed one way (with the adopted Babylonian ways) and those that didn’t.
Jeremiah 31:2 Thus saith YHWH: the people that were left of the sword have found grace in the wilderness, even Israel, when I go to cause him to rest.
God promises the descendants of Israel who, through captivity, exile, and intermarriage with Gentiles became assimilated and inculturated Gentiles today that they will find “grace in the wilderness”.
The exile mentioned in Isaiah
From the JPS (1917) Jewish Bible Tanakh
8 In full measure, when Thou sendest her away, Thou dost contend with her; He hath removed her with His rough blast in the day of the east wind.
9 Therefore by this shall the iniquity of Jacob be expiated, and this is all the fruit of taking away his sin: when he maketh all the stones of the altar as chalkstones that are beaten in pieces, so that the Asherim and the sun-images shall rise no more.
Their exile was their atonement.
Notice that there was ‘grace’ before Christianity and they also had BLOODLESS ATONEMENT! No blood was needed to forgive sins. SHOCKER!!
You are wee weeing in the wind. It was not Babylonian. It was the Mosaic Law.
Perhaps you just need to read the Book of Hebrews -- and then believe it.
Jeremiah 7 not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.
God DIDN'T command the sacrifices, the Israelites did by their own choice! That is why God said they went BACKWARD and not forward.
Interesting scripture but let's think this through. The Passover lambs had to be sacrificed first or they could not even get out of Egypt, right??? So without the shedding of blood there was no escape from the plague of the first born or the servitude in Egypt. That shedding of blood of the Passover lamb took place while still in Egypt.
All those subsequent sacrifices, per Jeremiah, were the result of the failure of the Israelites to give heed to the word of God. In other words, they continued to sin against the word of God. Those sins had to be purged and purged and purged -- thus the animal sacrifice system to drive into their heads that sin had consequences and "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin".
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