Posted on 08/11/2009 12:05:41 AM PDT by Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]
Prophecy is a fascinating, compelling, and ever-so interesting field of study. It is history written in advance. When you get into it, and I mean really into it, you can see God’s will for the world and see his plan unfold in it. Understanding Bible Prophecy serves these functions.
1. It proves the validity of the promises of God. 2. It reminds us that God is in control. 3. It serves as an instrument for measuring the moral and immoral state of humanity. 4. It serves as a tool to prepare us for the Lord’s return, so that we will be ready both spiritually and morally when we meet him face to face. 5. We will reach a point when we all know that all we did after receiving Christ as our savior, telling others, and bringing up the hope that was in us was worth it.
(Excerpt) Read more at makingsense.proboards.com ...
Do I know who the Antichrist is? No. Since Satan does not know the day or the hour when Christ will call Christians home at the rapture, I believe he has on hand somebody prepared to rise to the challenge once its time for his rise and God permits the powerful delusion to take place.
What is the delusion, and why does Paul say that God is going to send the delusion? Christ does not say one word about a rapture. If you really want to know who the play actor, instead of Jesus is, you can find out. Christ said Take ye heed, I have foretold you all things. We are suppose to know in advance who it is so we are not deceived.
Let's read the passage carefully and note it says NOTHING about 144,000 Jewish evangelists. That is a futurist fiction.
Israel will repent when all hope is lost.
The remnant of Israel is being saved today. It is the error of futurism to tie a massive conversion to some post-rapture "great tribulaiton".
That's futurist speculation encouraged by modern events. As I have made clear modern secular Israel is not BIblical Israel so there is no way to tie the modern state to Bible prophecy.
In fact the modern state could disapear tomoorow without impacting any specific prophecy.
You did not answer my questions. How have the promises of God that the descendents would be "a nation forever" and that they would have "everlasting possession" of the land of Canaan been fulfilled in your estimation?
After all, Israel has not been in possession of the land but for a small portion of the time since Abraham. How can you explain God's promise of an "everlasting possession"?
Or do you conveniently need to ignore those passages?
The answer to that question will go a long way to showing how you have misinterpreted the prophecies that you claim are unfolding today with modern Israel.
One of the "Benefits of Knowing Bible Prophecy" is that we can tell when someone comes along and makes false claims about current events. Most of the claims I read about modern secular Israel since 1948 falls into that camp.
You say, "When you take everything into consideration", but you are ignoring all that the NT says about the people of God, the royal priesthood and true holy nation. You ignore that the NT explains who the true children of Abraham are, and it has nothing to do with physical lineage. You are ignoring that the NT identifies physical Jerusalem with the bondswoman Hagar, and that God's true people inhabit the Jerusalem which is above. You are ignoring all the passage I gave to you back in post 27. By focusing strictly on the OT you will always come to the wrong conclusions about God’s Holy People, just as the unbelieving Jews of Jesus’ day did. "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit." (Matt. 21:43)
The delusion being sent and why it’s being sent is located in II Thessalonians 2:7-12.
7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
You’re right about the word rapture not being found in the Bible, but the concept is still relevant. Why? Because the word “rapture” comes from the Latin word rapturo, which is a translation of the Greek verb “caught up” that’s found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So again by technicality, even though the word rapture is not technically there as that word, its meaning still communicates the same, so it is safe to use that word.
Christ did foretell all things, but those who are not included in the event of the rapture will be left behind due to the fact that they willfully denied the truth and refused to be saved. We cannot know who the antichrist is because we (those who have accepted Christ as their Lord and personal Savior) are promised to be kept from the hour of trial that will come across the whole world (Rev. 3:10). The way the world is now, people, even Christians could fall victim to the Antichrist. Barack Obama’s support last year from evangelicals serves as a referendum, to me anyway, of this truth. People will fall for the Antichrist, including Christians. That is one of the reasons why Christ will take us away from the earth.
I think that God sends the delusion by simply giving Satan permission to act. Since Satan is a deceiver, and is the father of all lies, he can openly display all sorts of signs and wonders so sight (performing openly what looks like miracles, signs and wonders) will be in competition with faith.
For more information on the rapture, Please read my 2008 piece, “The Promise of the Rapture.”
http://makingsense.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=talked&action=display&thread=119
In previous generations, people have thought the antichrist was waiting in the wings during their time. People thought Nero was the Antichrist. People thought that Hitler was the Antichrist. Everyone who has said, “the antichrist is....” has been wrong. I’m just going to leave it at that for now.
Your Claim:
Let’s read the passage carefully and note it says NOTHING about 144,000 Jewish evangelists. That is a futurist fiction.
My Reply:
Then how else can you explain people coming to Christ during the Tribulation Hour? The only other thing I can think of is if people who are left behind go through their Christian relative’s belongings and read their books, watch their videos, and so on. Someone has to be here to actively pursue people who are on the earth who refuse to follow the Antichrist.
Aside from that, trained, Jewish ministers who are now Christians support my view.
The late Zola Levitt, Perry Stone, and many many others say that the 144,000 will evangelize during the tribulation.
You said:
It is the error of futurism to tie a massive conversion to some post-rapture “great tribulaiton”.
My Answer:
More people come to Christ when evil is most dominant. When times are good, I think less people come to Christ because people are too materialistic. Harsh experiences humble a person. That is just one explanation anyway.
You Said:
That’s futurist speculation encouraged by modern events. As I have made clear modern secular Israel is not BIblical Israel so there is no way to tie the modern state to Bible prophecy.
In fact the modern state could disapear tomoorow without impacting any specific prophecy.
My Reply:
The events that led to the formation of the modern state of Israel, its challenges, and its existence today has too many instances in which its safety and security has existed against all odds. I have no doubt in my mind that God is behind its existence from 1948 to today. If you follow a natural frame of mind, the Jews should not exist today. If that happened, it would make God a liar, or not real. There is too much weight behind the existence of the Jews today. I have faith in God and have faith in his promises. That’s why I am so adamant about this.
ping!
Christ said for the 'elect's' sake TIME would be shortened. So that 7 year tribulation is NOT going to be a literal 7 years. Now if you do not know that TIME has been shortened, but yet allll the 'trumps/seals/vials' are going to take place in a shortened time period, how are you going to know the season. Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 are those 'trumps/seals/vials' out of the mouth of Christ Himself. The tribulation is NOT about a flesh and blood war, it is about deception. The tribulation/deception is about the inhabitants of this earth getting a fake offer of 'salvation' by a supernatural being pretending to be Jesus, and you can read what he offered Christ if Christ would bend a knee to him. And how he quoted scripture, ever twisting the WORD. Christ said there would be wars and rumors of wars, see that ye be NOT troubled.
The delusion is that the majority of 'Christians' do not know who the 'anti'-Christ literally is. And from Genesis to Revelation we are told who 'he' is. It is not a flesh being, but that first rebel. The only named being that has already been sentenced to death. He, the devil is not nor will he ever be in flesh.
Now I realize that nothing I can say is going to pull that 'rapture' security blanket from your hands, because that is what you believe. Paul in Ephesians 6 says we are to put on the 'gospel' armour for a 'spiritual' battle. Now if all these 'good believers' are gone who is going to stand against the fiery darts of the devil? There is only one path to salvation, that is Christ, and he said I give you power over your enemies. John says the WORD is God from the beginning, quoting Genesis.
The rapture doctrine makes 'Christians' sound like a bunch of scaredy cats that cannot take the heat. Our own president displayed last week a glimpse into this religion of the coming tribulation when he quoted Cain as giving him the moral authority to take control over our health care economy. Did he not say something about a partnership with God as to who lives or dies? H E L L O!!!! And NO I am in NO way suggesting Bama is the instead of Jesus but he sure is speaking the language of that lawlessness one.
Thx.
First day of classes. Will try and get to it this evening.
It’s sooooo
comforting to see the usual
UNBIBLICAL UNMITIGATED NONSENSE BLATHER
from the prophetically clueless chorus.
It’s a wonderful marker of where folks don’t need to bother in terms of interpreting END TIMES signs of the times.
There’s now a reasonably clear number of screen names that can be easily scrolled on past unless one wants a good laugh.
Sock it to em.
The lurkers need the truth.
This is a pragmatic argument, not a biblical one. Given present circumstances, esp. the support of Israel by the United States and other military countries, the odds are not that great for the existence of secular Israel. It is a political state whose being and existence makes perfect sense to humanists and agnostics alike.
Biblical situations are undeniable by their very nature. There is no David vs. Goliath in the story of modern Israel. There is no Gideon and the 300 vs. the Midianites. In short, there is no proof from the Bible in the prophetic significance of modern, secular Israel. It is a nation not unlike other nations. But it is not the nation of the covenant.
“But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.” (1 Peter 2:9,10)
BTTT
I can only explain thing in terms of what is actually taught in the Bible. Can you ask that in terms a non-futurist can understand? I suspect your presuppositions about future events lead you to an answer that the rest of the Christian world doesn’t see.
Folks have been coming to Christ during the more horrific times of tribulation for 2000 years. It is the power of the gospel by the agency of the Holy Spirit preached by the faithful covenant people of God.
This gospel preaching by the Church will continue right up to the end, when Christ returns and sits in judgment over the nations. The righteous (His sheep) will receive eternal life and the unrighteous (goats) will receive eternal punishment.
31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. (Matt. 25)
This is going to be really interesting. In reviewing the list you gave me to challenge my position on the matter, I am not only going to answer your questions, but I also have some questions for you.
First, your questions to me.
Your Question:
How have the promises of God that the descendants would be “a nation forever” and that they would have “everlasting possession” of the land of Canaan been fulfilled in your estimation?
The answer to this is embedded within the bigger picture. I believe very strongly that God revealed to the prophets in the past the end result, meaning the “New Jerusalem,” but revealed to them way back then just enough information for them to get by, always having the hope of possessing the land when they were in it, and always having the hope that they will return to it to be inhabited forever when they were driven out of Israel. They do not realize that they were promised the New Jerusalem, and that the Covenant that God made with Abraham was and has always been the New Jerusalem revealed at the end of the book of Revelation. But aside from that, that is the bigger, bigger picture, that is so big that the mind has to be able to take on a lot at one time to even grasp the size and scope of its impact.
As for the Jews, I still stick by what I said about the Jews returning to the land of Israel in 1948 as being a part of prophecy. That was a small step that slides within the direction of the bigger picture. It is perfectly compatible with the bigger picture that is designed to complete the remaining unfulfilled prophecies in the Old Testament. After all, if there are any prophecies left unfulfilled, then that sends a message that God didn’t know all things if he predicted that things would happen that didn’t end up happening due to a change of plans, or a change in covenants.
I truly believe that this explanation provides an answer to the question, “How can you explain God’s promise of an “everlasting possession”?” When Christ returns to set up his Kingdom with the New Jerusalem, His Kingdom will never die. It will always be. But when you look at all things considered it is amazing to note what limited capacities our brains had in trying to collect all this on our own. But in the end, God’s will, will prevail and we will be witnesses to the assembling of the bigger picture.
So, if I am understanding you correctly, the promise to Abraham regarding the “eternal possession” of the land was ultimately a spiritual one, enjoyed by His spiritual people.
I can agree with that. The new Jerusalem is presently in heaven, where it will remain until the eternal state (Heb. 12:22; Rev. 21:1-3), after Christ subdues all His enemies (1 Cor. 15:24,25). It is this heavenly Jerusalem, rather than a carnal city, that Abraham longed for (Heb 11:16).
As for the Jews, I still stick by what I said about the Jews returning to the land of Israel in 1948 as being a part of prophecy.
You can stick by it if you wish, but as I pointed out the is no real proof from the Bible that such is the case. Modern Israel does not in any way satisfy the biblical criteria for a nation to be called “Israel”. See post 27. To which I would add one more item; that modern Israel does not occupy the physical land promised to Abraham (Gen. 15:18; Joshua 1:4; 2 Sam 8:3).
That was a small step that slides within the direction of the bigger picture. It is perfectly compatible with the bigger picture that is designed to complete the remaining unfulfilled prophecies in the Old Testament.
Unfortunately, this is more of a rationalization of your personal views rather than a solid argument from the Bible. Which prophecies of the OT remain unfulfilled today is precisely the question at hand. The argument advanced by futurists is less than compelling, esp. in light of the fuller revelation of the NT.
I truly believe that this explanation provides an answer to the question, “How can you explain God’s promise of an “everlasting possession”?” When Christ returns to set up his Kingdom with the New Jerusalem, His Kingdom will never die.
If you are speaking of the futurist millennial reign, I would just point out that there is nothing in the Bible to connect the new Jerusalem on earth prior to the eternal state (i.e., Rev. 21).
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