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To: topcat54

This is going to be really interesting. In reviewing the list you gave me to challenge my position on the matter, I am not only going to answer your questions, but I also have some questions for you.

First, your questions to me.

Your Question:
How have the promises of God that the descendants would be “a nation forever” and that they would have “everlasting possession” of the land of Canaan been fulfilled in your estimation?

The answer to this is embedded within the bigger picture. I believe very strongly that God revealed to the prophets in the past the end result, meaning the “New Jerusalem,” but revealed to them way back then just enough information for them to get by, always having the hope of possessing the land when they were in it, and always having the hope that they will return to it to be inhabited forever when they were driven out of Israel. They do not realize that they were promised the New Jerusalem, and that the Covenant that God made with Abraham was and has always been the New Jerusalem revealed at the end of the book of Revelation. But aside from that, that is the bigger, bigger picture, that is so big that the mind has to be able to take on a lot at one time to even grasp the size and scope of its impact.

As for the Jews, I still stick by what I said about the Jews returning to the land of Israel in 1948 as being a part of prophecy. That was a small step that slides within the direction of the bigger picture. It is perfectly compatible with the bigger picture that is designed to complete the remaining unfulfilled prophecies in the Old Testament. After all, if there are any prophecies left unfulfilled, then that sends a message that God didn’t know all things if he predicted that things would happen that didn’t end up happening due to a change of plans, or a change in covenants.

I truly believe that this explanation provides an answer to the question, “How can you explain God’s promise of an “everlasting possession”?” When Christ returns to set up his Kingdom with the New Jerusalem, His Kingdom will never die. It will always be. But when you look at all things considered it is amazing to note what limited capacities our brains had in trying to collect all this on our own. But in the end, God’s will, will prevail and we will be witnesses to the assembling of the bigger picture.


59 posted on 09/04/2009 9:08:00 PM PDT by Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]
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To: Making_Sense [Rob W. Case]
The answer to this is embedded within the bigger picture. I believe very strongly that God revealed to the prophets in the past the end result, meaning the “New Jerusalem,” but revealed to them way back then just enough information for them to get by, always having the hope of possessing the land when they were in it, and always having the hope that they will return to it to be inhabited forever when they were driven out of Israel. They do not realize that they were promised the New Jerusalem, and that the Covenant that God made with Abraham was and has always been the New Jerusalem revealed at the end of the book of Revelation. But aside from that, that is the bigger, bigger picture, that is so big that the mind has to be able to take on a lot at one time to even grasp the size and scope of its impact.

So, if I am understanding you correctly, the promise to Abraham regarding the “eternal possession” of the land was ultimately a spiritual one, enjoyed by His spiritual people.

I can agree with that. The new Jerusalem is presently in heaven, where it will remain until the eternal state (Heb. 12:22; Rev. 21:1-3), after Christ subdues all His enemies (1 Cor. 15:24,25). It is this heavenly Jerusalem, rather than a carnal city, that Abraham longed for (Heb 11:16).

As for the Jews, I still stick by what I said about the Jews returning to the land of Israel in 1948 as being a part of prophecy.

You can stick by it if you wish, but as I pointed out the is no real proof from the Bible that such is the case. Modern Israel does not in any way satisfy the biblical criteria for a nation to be called “Israel”. See post 27. To which I would add one more item; that modern Israel does not occupy the physical land promised to Abraham (Gen. 15:18; Joshua 1:4; 2 Sam 8:3).

That was a small step that slides within the direction of the bigger picture. It is perfectly compatible with the bigger picture that is designed to complete the remaining unfulfilled prophecies in the Old Testament.

Unfortunately, this is more of a rationalization of your personal views rather than a solid argument from the Bible. Which prophecies of the OT remain unfulfilled today is precisely the question at hand. The argument advanced by futurists is less than compelling, esp. in light of the fuller revelation of the NT.

I truly believe that this explanation provides an answer to the question, “How can you explain God’s promise of an “everlasting possession”?” When Christ returns to set up his Kingdom with the New Jerusalem, His Kingdom will never die.

If you are speaking of the futurist millennial reign, I would just point out that there is nothing in the Bible to connect the new Jerusalem on earth prior to the eternal state (i.e., Rev. 21).

60 posted on 09/05/2009 3:52:47 PM PDT by topcat54 ("If Israel is 'God's prophetic clock,' then dispensationalists do not know how to tell time.")
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