Posted on 07/14/2009 11:41:13 PM PDT by Quix
The God Chasers by Tommy Tenney Book Excerpt & Commentary
I recently finished THE SHACK by William P Young and HE LOVES ME by Wayne Jacobsen.
I found both of them deeply moving, Biblical, edifying and helpful in drawing me closer to God.
Subsequently, a Navy Friend/ Christian Bro of 30+ years read me the riot act about THE SHACK. I found his rants about “heresy” completely without substance. Turns out he had not read it. Sheesh. It is, after all, a NOVEL! And, I found it exceedingly Biblical.
Some important Biblical truths, doctrines are affirmed with a sentence and lain aside as the tale proceeds to illustrate particular aspects of our relationship with God and God’s character and priorities. However, having read it once, I can’t recall a single thing that struck me as unBiblical.
HE LOVES ME is similarly impactful. The two of them are, to me, truly in a class with Bunyan’s: Pilgrim’s Progress in terms of spiritual import and potential spiritual growth thereby facilitated.
My current volume has been one I’ve sought for some months. It was recommended by one of God’s Vagabond Prophet sorts of characters who knew that I have long sought a deeper, more intense relationship with God. Note: I added some extra paragraphing below.
WARNING regarding the following: It will be a test for many regarding their sensibilities, assumptions, biases, comfort zones, priorities, self-righteousness, smugness, attitudes, human understandings, !!!!TRADITIONS!!!!, customs, habits, idolatries, . . . The choice will be to lay all aside and choose whatever God is doing, wishes to do in each individual’s life—
Or not.
The consequences of such a choice will be far from inconsequential.
Here’s a good chunk from the first chapter:
Running hard after God—Ps 63:8
We think we know where God lives.
We think we know what He likes, and we are sure KNOW WHAT He dislikes.
We have studied God’s Word and His old love letters to the churches so much that some of us claim to know all about God. But now people like you and me around the world are beginning to hear a voice speak to them with persistent but piercing repetition in the stillness of the night:
I thought I did. At one time I thought I had achieved a good measure of success in the ministry. After all, I had preached in some of the largest churches in America. I was involved in international outreach efforts with great men of God. I went to Russia numerous times and helped start many churches there. I’ve done a lot of things for God…because I thought that was what I was supposed to do.
But on one autumn Sunday morning, something happened to change all that. It put all my ministerial accomplishments, credentials, and achievements in jeopardy. A long-time friend of mine . . . in Houston . . . had asked me to speak at his church. I somehow sensed that destiny was waiting. . . .
I am a fourth generation Spirit-filled Christian, three generations deep into ministry, but I must be honest with you: I was sick of church. I was just like most of the people we try to lure into our services every week. They won’t come because they are sick of church too. But on the other hand, though most of the people who drive by our churches, . . . may be sick of church as well, they’re also hungry for God.
. . .
Ironically, as a minister I was suffering from the same hunger pangs as the people who had never met Jesus before! I just wasn’t content to know about Jesus anymore.
. . .
It’s simply not enough to know about God. We have churches filled with people who can win Bible trivia contests but who don’t know Him. I am afraid that some of us have been side-tracked or entangled by everything from prosperity to poverty, and we’ve become such an ingrown society of the self-righteous that our desires and our wants and those of the Holy Spirit are two different matters.
If we’re not careful, we can become so interested in developing the “cult of the comfortable” with our comfortable pastor, our comfortable church building, and our comfortable circle of friends, that we forget about the thousands of discontented, wounded, and dying people who pass by our comfortable church every day! I can’t help but think that if we fail to even try to reach them with the gospel of Jesus Christ, then He sure wasted a lot of blood on Calvary. Now that makes me uncomfortable.
There had to be more. I was desperate for a God encounter (of the closest kind).
I returned home after speaking at my friend’s church in Texas. . . . the pastor called again. He said, “Tommy, we’ve been friends for years now. And I don’t know that I’ve ever asked anybody to come back for a second Sunday in a row…but would you come back here next Sunday too?” I agreed. We could tell that God was up to something. Was the pursuer now being pursued? We were about to be apprehended by that which we ourselves were chasing?
This second Sunday was even more intense. No one wanted to leave the building after the Sunday night service. “What should we do?” my pastor friend asked. “We should have a prayer meeting on Monday night,” I said, “with no other agenda. Let’s gauge the hunger of the people and see what’s happening.” Four hundred people showed up that Monday for the prayer meeting, and all we did was seek the face of God. Something was definitely going on. A minuscule crack was appearing in the brass heavens over the city of Houston. Collective hunger was crying for a corporate visitation.
I went back home and by Wednesday the pastor was on the phone again . . . He is a fellow God chaser and we were in hot pursuit. His church had fueled a flaming hunger in me. They too had been preparing for pursuit. There was a sense that we were close to “catching” Him.
That’s an interesting phrase, isn’t it? Catching Him. Really, it’s an impossible phrase. We can no more catch Him than the east can catch the west; they’re too far removed from each other. It’s like playing chase with my daughter . . . When she comes and tries to catch me . . . I really don’t have to run. I just artfully dodge . . . and she can’t even touch me, because a six-year-old can’t catch an adult. But that’s not really the purpose of the game, because a few minutes into it, she laughingly says, “Oh daddy,” and it’s at that moment that she capturesmy heart, if not my presence or body. And then I turn and she’s no longer chasing me, but I’m chasing her, and I catch her and we tumble in the grass with hugs and kisses. The pursuer becomes the pursued.
So can we catch Him? Not really, but we can catch His heart. David did. And if we catch His heart, then He turn and chases us. That’s the beauty of being a God chaser. You’re chasing the impossible, knowing it’s possible.
This body of believers in Houston had two scheduled services on Sundays. The first morning service started at 8:30, and the second one followed and began at 11.
When I returned for the third weekend, while in the hotel, I sensed a heavy anointing of some kind, a brooding of the Spirit, and I literally wept and trembled.
The following morning, we walked into the building for the 8:30 Sunday service expecting to see the usual early morning first service “sleepy” crowd with their low-key worship.
As I walked in to sit down in the front row that morning, the presence of God was already in that place so heavily that the air was “thick.” You could barely breathe.
The musicians were clearly struggling to continue their ministry; their tears got in the way. Music became more difficult to play. Finally, the presence of God hovered so strongly that they couldn’t sing or play any longer. The worship leader crumpled in sobs behind the keyboard.
If there was one good decision I made in life, it was made that day. I had never been this close to “catching” God, and I was not going to stop. So I spoke to my wife, Jeannie. “You should go continue to lead people into the presence of God as a worshiper and intercessor. She quietly moved to the front and continued to facilitate the worship and ministry to the Lord. It wasn’t anything fancy; it was just simple. That was the only appropriate response in that moment.
The atmosphere reminded me of the passage in Isaiah 6, something I’d read about, and even dared dream I might experience myself. In this passage the glory of the Lord filled the temple. I’d never understood what it meant for the glory of the Lord to fill a place. . . . God was there: of that there was no doubt. But more of Him kept coming in the place until, as in Isaiah, it literally filled the building. At times the air was so rarefied that it became almost unbreathable. Oxygen came in short gasps, seemingly. Muffled sobs broke through the room. In the midst of this, the pastor turned to me and asked me a question.
“Tommy, are you ready to take the service?” “Pastor, I’m just about half-afraid to step up there, because I sense that God is about to do something.”
Tears were streaming down my face when I said that. I wasn’t afraid that God was going to strike me down or that something bad was going to happen. I just didn’t want to interfere and grieve the precious presence that was filling up that room!
For too long we humans have only allowed the Holy Spirit to take control up to a certain point. Basically, whenever it gets outside of our comfort zone or just a little beyond our control, we pull in the reins (the Bible calls it “quenching the Spirit” in First Thessalonians 5:19). We stop at the tabernacle veil too many times.
“I feel like I should read Second Chronicles 7:14, and I have a word from the Lord,” my pastor friend said.
With profuse tears I nodded assent and said, “Go, go!”
My friend is not a man given to any kind of outward demonstration; he is essentially a man of “even” emotions. But when he got up to walk to the platform, he appeared visibly shaky. At this point I so sensed something was about to happen, that I walked all the way from the front row to the back of the room to stand by the sound booth. I knew God was going to do something; I just didn’t know where. I was on the front row and it could happen behind me or to the side of me. I was so desperate to catch Him that I got up and publicly walked back to the sound booth as the pastor walked up to the pulpit to speak, so I could see whatever happened. . . . “God I want to be able to see whatever it is You are about to do.”
My pastor friend stepped up to the clear pulpit in the center of the platform, opened the Bible and quietly read the gripping passage from Second Chronicles 7:14:
If my people, which are called by My name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways; then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
Then he closed his Bible, gripped the edges of the pulpit with trembling hands, and said, “The word of the Lord to us is to stop seeking His benefits and seek Him. We are not to seek His hands any longer, but seek His face.”
In that instant, I heard what sounded like a thunderclap echo through the building, and the pastor was literally picked up and thrown backwards about ten feet, effectively separating him from the pulpit. When he went backward, the pulpit fell forward. The beautiful flower arrangement positioned in front of it fell to the ground, but by the time the pulpit hit the ground, it was already in two pieces. It had split into two pieces almost as if lightening had hit it [it was evidently a clear, thick walled, Lucite type plastic see through pulpit]! At that instant the tangible terror of the presence of God filled that room.
I quickly stepped to the microphone from the back of the room and said, “In case you aren’t aware of it, God has just moved into this place. The pastor is fine. [It was two and a half hourse before he could even get up, though—and even then the ushers had to carry him. Only his hand trembled slightly to give proof of life.] He’s going to be fine.”
While all of this happened, the ushers quickly ran to the front to check on the pastor and to pick up the two pieces of the split pulpit. No one really paid much attention to the split pulpit; we were too occupied with the torn heavenlies.
The presence of God had hit that place like some kind of bomb. People began to weep and to wail. I said, “If you’re not where you need to be, this is a good time to get right with God.” I’ve never seen such an altar call. It was pure pandemonium. People shoved one another out of the way. They wouldn’t wait for the aisles to clear; they climbed over pews, businessmen tore their ties off, and they were literally stacked on top of one another, in the most horribly harmonious sound of repentance you ever heard. Just the thought of it still sends chills down my back.
When I gave the altar call then for the 8:30 a.m service, I had no idea that it would be but the first of seven altar calls that day.
When it was time for the 11:00 service to begin, nobody had left the building. The people were still on their faces and, even though there was hardly any musiuc being played at this point, worship was rampant and uninhibited. Grown men were ballet dancing; little children were weeping in repentance. People were on their faces, on their feet, on their knees, but mostly in His presence.
There was so much of the presence and the power of God there that people began to feel an urgent need to be baptized. I watched people walk through the doors of repentance, and one after another experienced the glory and the presence of God as He came near.
Then they wanted baptized, and I was in a quandary about what to do. The pastor was still unavailable on the floor. Prominent people walked up to me and stated, “I’ve got to be baptized. Somebody tell me what to do.” . . .
Two and a half hours had passed, and since the pastor had only managed to wiggle one finger at that point to call the elders to him, the ushers had carried him to his office. Meanwhile, all these people were asking me (or anyone else they could find) if they could be baptized. As a visiting minister at the church, I didn’t want to assume the authority to tell anyone to baptize these folks, so I sent people back to the pastor’s office to see if he would authorize the water baptisms.
I gave one altar call after another, and hundreds of people were coming forward. As more and more people came to me asking about water baptism, I noticed that no one I had sent to the pastor’s office had returned.
Finally I sent a senior assistant pastor back there and told him, “Please find out what Pastor wants to do about the water baptisms—nobody has come back to tell me yet.” The man stuck his head in the pastor’s office, and to his shock, he saw the pastor still lying before the Lord, and everyone I had sent there was sprawled on the floor too, just weeping and repenting before God. He hurried back to tell me what he had seen and added, “I’ll go ask him, but if I go in that office I may not be back either.”
I shrugged my shoulders and agreed with the associate pastor, “I guess it’s alright to baptize them.” So we began to baptize people as a physical sign of their repentance before the Lord, and we ended up baptizing people for hours.
More and more people kept pouring in, and since the people from the early service were still there, there were cars parked everywhere outside the church building. A big open-air ball field next to the building was filled with cars parked every which way.
As people drove onto the parking lot, they sensed the presence of God so strongly that some began to weep uncontrollably. They just found themselves driving up onto the parking lot or into the grass not knowing what was going on. Some started to get out of their cars and barely managed to stagger across the parking lot. Some came inside the building only to fall to the floor just inside the doors. The hard-pressed ushers had to literally pull the helpless people away from the doors and stack them up along the walls of the hallways to clear the entrance. Others managed to make it part way down the hallways, and some made it to the foyer before they fell on their faces in repentance.
Some actually made it inside the auditorium, but most of them didn’t bother to find seats. They just made for the altar. . . . it wasn’t long before they began to weep and repent. . . .there wasn’t any preaching. There wasn’t even any music part of the time. Primarily one thing happened that day: The presence of God showing up.
When that happens, the first thing you do is the same thing Isaiah did when he saw the Lord high and lifted up. He cried out from the depths of his soul:
Then said I, Woe is me! For I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts (Isaiah 6:5)
You see, the instant Isaiah the prophet, the chosen servant of God, saw the King of glory, what he used to think was clean and holy now looked like filthy rags. He was thinking, “I thought I knew God, but I didn’t know this much of God! That Sunday we seemed to come so close; we almost caught Him. Now I know it’s possible.
People just kept filling the auditorium again and again . . . We didn’t have to announce our plans for Monday evening. Everybody already knew. Frankly, there would have been a meeting whether we announced it or not. The people simply went home to get some sleep or do the things they had to do, and then they came right back for more--not for more of men and their programs, but for God and His presence.
Night after night, the pastor and I would come in and say, “What are we going to do?”
What we meant was, “I don’t know what to do. What does He want to do?”
Sometimes we’d go in and start trying to “have church,” but the crying hunger of the people would quickly draw in the presence of God and suddenly God had us!
Listen, my friend, God doesn’t care about your music, your midget steeples, and your flesh-impressive buildings. Your church carpet doesn’t impress Him—He carpets the fields. God doesn’t really care about anything you can “do” for Him; He only cares about your answer to one question: “Do you want Me?”
We have programmed our church services so tightly that we really don’t’ leave room for the Holy Spirit. Oh, we might let God speak prophetically to us a little, but we get nervous if He tries to break out of our schedules. We can’t let God out of the box too much because He can ruin everything. (That has become my prayer: “Break out of our boxes, Lord, and ruin everything that isn’t of You!”)
Let me ask you a question: How long has it been since you came to church and said, “We are going to wait on the Lord”? I think we are afraid to wait on Him because we’re afraid He won’t show up. I have a promise for you: “They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength” (Is 40:31a).
Do you want to know why we’ve lived in weakness as Christians and have not had all that God wanted for us? Do you want to know why we have lived beneath our privilege and have not had the strength to overcome our own carnality? Maybe it’s because we haven’t waited on Him to show up to empower us, and we’re trying to do too much in the power of our own soulish realm.
. . .
. . . .
As far as I can tell, there is only one thing that stops Him. He is not going to pour out His Spirit where He doesn’t find hunger. He looks for the hungry. Hunger means you’re dissatisfied with the way it has been because it forced you to live without Him in His fullness. He only comes when you are ready to turn it all over to Him. God is coming back to repossess His Church, but you have to be hungry.
He wants to reveal Himself among us. He wants to come ever stronger, and stronger, and stronger, and stronger until your flesh won’t be able to stand it. The beauty of it is this: neither will the unsaved driving by be able to resist. It’s beginning to happen. I have seen the day when sinners veer off the highway when they drive by places of an open heaven. They pull into parking lots with puzzled looks, and they knock on the doors and say, “Please, there’s something here…I’ve got to have it.”
In what ways does C. S. Lewis take forsake his beliefs in the Narnia series? Very Christian, in my way of thinking.
Don’t get that started here. The takes of the popular media from Reuters and AP have been thoroughly debunked by other authors — and they aren’t all Catholic. I don’t want to hijack your thread here about that.
And, similarly, THE SHACK is very Christian, imho.
Both are allegories in a list of ways.
Neither are Scripture.
I found both very faithful TO Scripture though each used various literary devices to illustrate various Scriptural truths.
I found both very faithful to Scripture.
Is God a furry lion. No. Is Jesus the Lion of Judah, yes.
Similar stuff in THE SHACK.
I would expect that book to be quite interesting.
Happy to comply.
I also have read the God Chasers. I LOVED that book as well. It birthed a desire in me that I would no longer be content with the status quo of "church". I can settle for no less than all of my Lord.
I am currently reading a book (and commentary) by Paul Philip Levertoff titled Love and the Messianic Age. This book has surpassed any other book I have read so far in that my love for the LORD has multiplied to a degree I do not yet understand.
Here's a few excerpts from the book:
In His relations with man on earth, God has shown Himself a king who desires to make His abode with us her below. The higher a being, the lower he is able to condescend. God wished to be among the small and despised, not as a sultan ruling in his palace, hidden and ruling only by power, but as a good and wise king whose one desire is to draw his subjects to himself; a king who also, out of love for his own, forsakes his palace and dwells among his people in order to unite himself with them, that they may see more of his glory and learn more of his character.
Creation, indeed, signifies of God's perfection. In creation God has by an act of self-limitation created conscious beings, that these may have the joy, first, of realizing their selfhood, and then, of realizing Him, their Creator, and of receiving Him into their innermost life as their Father and King. The proof of God's love lies less in the fact that He raises creatures to Himself, than in that He stoops to have His tabernacle among men and thus reveal Himself to them. A beautiful simile illustrates this point. It is as though a man accompanied by his young son were climbing a mountain. As the father reaches the summit, he turns to find that the son is far below. But they can still see one another. The son longs to reach the father, but the higher he rises, the more strenuous becomes the task. What does the father do when he sees the intense desire on the part of the son to come to him? He can restrain himself no longer, but comes down to meet him. Even so does God in answer to the strivings of the mystic soul. (p.35 & 36)
____________________________
When all our thoughts and actions are the outcome of divine inspiration, then we unite everything that is seemingly separated from and independent of God with Him. And so we cooperate with Him in His redemptive activities and prepare the way for the Messiah. The following parable illustrates this:
A king lost a costly pearl. He sent out his three sons to find it. The first set out, glad to be free from the restraint of his father's presence. He cared neither for the pearl nor for his father. He never returned, but spent his life in following his own pleasure. The second set forth, made a hasty search, and quickly returned to his father's house, not because he so greatly loved his father but because he was loath to be away so long from the comforts of his home. Now, the third set out, full of sorrow at leaving his home and his beloved father, but determined, notwithstanding all his own suffering and separation, to stay away and make diligent search until he should find the pearl, because he knew what great joy the finding of it would give to his father.
One man is altogether absorbed in the things of this world. Another is eager to please God, not out of love for Him, but because he is afraid to lose the future bliss in paradise. But there are some men who love God for His own sake and search for the divine sparks which are scattered in this world, in man and nature, and try to bring them back to their source.
Man has been created by God in order that he may finish what God has deliberately left unfinished. Not that God needs the help of His creatures, but it is His love which causes Him to impart His own Nature to the work of His hands, in order that man should have the privilege and joy of becoming His fellow-worker in this world, in natural as well as in spiritual life.(p. 40 & 41)
Thanks for the ping!
Amen!
However, Scripture teaches that authority and submission are inherent to the Godhead and have existed from the beginning. Jesus was sent by the Father, and He does the will of the Father. He prayed in the garden of Gethsemane that not His will be done, by Thy will be done. Jesus submits to the authority of the Father. These are not the results of sin; they are the very nature of the Godhead in which all three persons are equal in essence but exist within a hierarchy of authority and submission.
There are clear examples of authority and submission throughout the Bible. The book of Matthew is focused on the authority of Jesus Christ. The angels have rank and levels of authority. Wives should submit to their husbands and we must submit to the authority of God and Jesus Christ.
Amen again.
We need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the Romanist holy bath water. We are to submit ourselves to the authority of Scripture where our own personal sanctification by the Holy Spirit is augmented by worshiping as a congregation of like-minded believers in a church led by representatives elected from among the congregation.
That's why I find the presbyterian form of church structuring so productive. It is not a vertical hierarchy of Rome. It is not a horizontal hierarchy of no authority. It is a diagonal hierarchy made up of believers who are all bound by the word of God.
There is a church of Jesus Christ on earth to which we submit for learning and discipline, but only if and when that church is preaching the truth of the risen Christ. If not, we are told to leave it behind and find a congregation that does honor and submit to the word of God above all else.
That's why of the 33 chapters of the Westminster Confession of Faith, the very first chapter is "Of the Holy Scripture" while "Of the Church" is chapter 25.
Excellent points.
Will keep an eye out for your last book recommend.
Thanks much for your post.
I quite agree.
PRAISE GOD.
That's why I find the presbyterian form of church structuring so productive. It is not a vertical hierarchy of Rome. It is not a horizontal hierarchy of no authority. It is a diagonal hierarchy made up of believers who are all bound by the word of God.
There is a church of Jesus Christ on earth to which we submit for learning and discipline, but only if and when that church is preaching the truth of the risen Christ. If not, we are told to leave it behind and find a congregation that does honor and submit to the word of God above all else.
That's why of the 33 chapters of the Westminster Confession of Faith, the very first chapter is "Of the Holy Scripture" while "Of the Church" is chapter 25.
Amen, and AMEN Dr E!
Thanks for your thoughtful post.
Second, there is something VERY SERIOUSLY WRONG with someone who makes the claim that all they can find in the Bible is "about Jesus" and still want to know more. The Bible IS our relationship to God through which He speaks to our hearts. It convict us of sin, righteousness and judgment. I don't know any legitimate Christian that will not tell you they can study the word of God year after year and still find new and exciting things in it. There is no other book like that. A person cannot do any better than the word of God. It is the ONLY thing on this earth that ISN'T of this earth. What the author is saying is that the Bible is simply not enough-a very dangerous position. Think of it as telling God that He didn't provide enough information.
Third, who doesn't know the churches are filled with people who don't know God-especially the liberal Episcopals? These are the tares of the church. True Christians do NOT reflect society but reflect the divine nature of God. We all have our faults but true Christians keep on striving because of God's Spirit. So you can either blame the tares for not knowing God, or you can blame the Christians for not being as perfected as they should be. But what's the point?
Personally, I find the part of him telling about the pastor wanting him to come back again and again because he packed them in was a bit full of pride. People who say they "feel" they really are getting close to God reminds me of the many people in the Old Testament who thought they were just as good as Moses before God; everyone of which got quite a surprise-from Koran to Aaron and Marian. It is God who picks out the person who He chooses to talk to face to face-not the other way around. And Moses was certainly humbled by the experience since we read that he was the most humblest man in the world. It is rather arrogant to suggest we can get close to God unless He draws us to Him. And it is only when He draws us that we see our own wretchness.
I could go on, but there seems to be plenty to say this book appears to be filled with errors and misconceptions.
Dear Harley,
I think you misperceived some things wholesale . . . beginning with getting the books wrong.
The excerpts were from THE GOD CHASERS, and NOT from THE SHACK.
I hope to comment later . . . on your specific complaints about what Tommy had to say in THE GOD CHASERS.
OBVIOUSLY, you’ve NEVER BEEN IN that kind of service else your assumptions and perspectives would be wholesale different. There is NO comparison with conventional services.
And, you seemed to not notice and assumed quite INCORRECTLY, Tommy had NOTHING to do with folks thronging to the church. That phenomena was 100% God. Tommy was as much along for the ride as the rest of the folks. Evidently you missed the part about there being absolutely no preaching and even little music. GOD WAS ON THE SCENE WITH HIS PRESENCE. NOTHING ELSE COULD HOLD A CANDLE TO THAT.
Obviously you’ve never EXPERIENCED that on anything close to such a scale or your perceptions and biases would have been forever changed about it and you could not have written what you did that I’m responding to.
The lengthy excerpts were NOT from THE SHACK. They were from Tommy Tenney's THE GOD CHASERS.
I have found that THAT tends to depend on the level of arrogance the "Christian" concerned tends to . . . harbor . . . as well as how much of a "Biblical scholar" they consider themselves to be. Certainly you are right about the authentic "broken and contrite authentic Christians" and I'm confident that Tommy T would agree.
Maybe this is a good place to make the observation that your construction on Biblical, theological and conventional reality APPEARS TO BE SUCH that there's ABSOLUTELY NO PROVISION for; no room for; no capacity for God to act OUTSIDE of the box you have Him in. Doesn't mean any evil intent or any such--just a great lack.
In some respects, it's like a 2 dimensional flat-lander trying to fantasize about what life in 4 dimensions is like--or even 3. Only it appears, it sounds like you're not even allowing so much as a possibility of such to even begin to allow the possibility or capacity or attractiveness of even such fantasizing.
In a LOT of respects, it saddens me deeply to think, realize, read you assert that as wonderful and constantly unfolding enlargements on realities about Christ that Scripture is--CHRIST CANNOT BE CONTAINED IN SCRIPTURE. EVEN SCRIPTURE IS TOOOOO FINITE in a list of ways. That you seem to construe it that all of the knowable Christ, Father, Spirit COULD be contained in Scripture boggles my mind. I see you as sharper than to be so limited to such an inaccurate, anemic, UNBiblical perspective on that score.
There is NO way that Scripture, as alive as it is, could possibly be MORE than ABOUT CHRIST, Father, Spirit. The finite book in your hands, on your shelves CANNOT be the living infinite GOD OF ALL CREATION. As J.B. Philips book title exhorted: YOUR GOD IS TOO SMALL.
Yes and no. Mostly no.
Yes, God speaks to us THROUGH SCRIPTURE. NOT ONLY. As Scripture attests, the He speaks to all individuals through the Heavens, too. Certainly He speaks to us through circumstances.
Certainly any serious Christian for very long has had the experience of Holy Spirit causing a verse or part of a verse to JUMP OUT AT THEM when they've been travailing over a big problem in their lives and suddenly they realize that God has spoken specifically to their concerns, needs, questions about that heavy duty problem very specifically and supernaturally using that verse in the Scripture.
HOWEVER, THAT EXPERIENCE was NOT Scripture per se JUMPING out at them. That was HOLY SPIRIT (the Author) CAUSING SCRIPTURE to jump out at them in specific terms at a specific point in time and space about a specific problem of great need and concern to that specific individual.
NO, EVEN SCRIPTURE IS WHOLLY INADEQUATE to do a stand-in role for the LIVING ALMIGHTY INFINITE GOD OF ALL CREATION in even one single relationship with one single individual--much less all Believers.
The Ten Commandments could not do it. God still invited the Israelites to meet Him at the TENT OF MEETING FOR INTIMATE SUPERNATURAL DIALOGUE WITH THE LIVING GOD. They were afraid to do so and insisted that Moses be the go-between. Moses was inadequate to that task and certainly a finite book of even Scripture is also wholesale inadequate to fill that role.
Certainly Scripture can introduce us, WITH HOLY SPIRIT'S HELP--TO GOD. And Scripture can facilitate our LIVING FOR GOD and even to some degree, our dialogue with God. But it CANNOT fill God Almighty's role of active IN THE PRESENT DIALOGUE with each individual. It cannot. And God knows I've tried every way I know how to get it to fill that role. Doesn't work. Won't work. CANNOT work.
QUITE SO. And that has nothing to do with the point. That is still INADEQUATE--THAT STILL DOES NOT AND CANNOT rise to the level of filling Infinite Almighty God's role and desire to actively dialogue with us on an ongoing basis 1:1.
WRONG. THAT'S an UNBiblical assertion.
Moses had the Ten Commandments and He had ongoing intimate daily dialogue with Almighty God. You think he equated those two? Nonsense!
The Apostles had the Old Testament and a growing body of the New Testament. Post Acts 2 and Pentecost, they also had the Indwelling Holy Spirit carrying on the Dialogue with Almighty God 1:1. They could consider Scriptures as I Cor 12-14 exhorted when evaluating a prophetic utterance. They also had active DIALOGUE WITH THE INFINITE ALMIGHTY GOD 1:1 IN HIS STILL SMALL VOICE way. The two were experienced as quite different in some respects because they were.
And millions of authentic Christians ever since have had similar experiences of dialogue with Almighty Infinite God 1:1 by His Spirit. THAT IS NOT THE SAME AS reading Scripture--even with Holy Spirit unfolding Scripture--there's a difference. Certainly Holy Spirit unfolding Scripture can be part of that 1:1 dialouge. But that Dialogue is not limited to that.
NOT SO! That's an UNBiblical assertion. HOLY SPIRIT IS ON THE EARTH AND INDWELLS ALL AUTHENTIC BELIEVERS. He is keenly interested in DIALOGUE and facilitating Dialogue with Father and Jesus. As JESUS SAID: MY SHEEP !!!!HEAR!!!! MY !!!!VOICE!!!! Are you calling Jesus a liar?
UTTER HOGWASH. GOD SET THE NEW TESTAMENT FORMAT UP AND OUTLINED IT IN I COR 12-14. The fact that many churches do not follow God's insturctions on that score doesn't impress God much at all.
OF COURSE SCRIPTURE doesn't provide exhaustive information about God. Even Scripture itself asserts that the world could not contain all the books describing Christ's doings in his mere 33 earthly years. OF COURSE Scripture was not DESIGNED to speak to every Christian individual about who to marry, what car to buy; which job to take; whether to move to NM or AZ . . . etc. etc.
HOWEVER, GOD ALMIGHTY WANTS to be intimately involved in all those decisions--IN DIALOGUE.
That paragraph has nothing to do per se with what Tommy T was talking about--describing--except that Tommy was saying that playing church doesn't cut it compared to GOD SHOWING UP ON THE SCENE WITH *HIS* ****PRESENCE**** TANGIBLY FILLING THE PLACE. There's no way it can. It's night and day different.
THAT'S 100% HOGWASH. Tommy did NOT PREACH AT ALL from that morning BEFORE the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY SHOWED UP IN POWER AND MIGHT. He was doing all he could manage to feebly run alongside for the ride. He wasn't embarrassed per se because being in God's tangible PRESENCE IS REWARD BEYOND MEASURE. But he wasn't the least bit proud nor were anyone else IN THE ROOM.
YOU HAVE OBSVIOUSLY NOT been in such a meeting. Had you been, you would have KNOWN that PRIDE IN THE OVERT ABJECT OVERWHELMING !!!!PRESENCE!!!! OF GOD GETS OBLITERATED. No one with pride can even stand at all or likely cannot even get inside the doors. One of the first things you find yourself repulsed by and repenting of and pushing away from you as fully and rapidly as possible is pride. You struck out 100% on that allegation. Just absolutely does not at all fit the situation.
Again, Tommy did NOT HAVE A SINGLE THING TO DO with the building being packed. GOD DREW THEM IN SUPERNATURALLY BY HIS SPIRIT. Did you not read of folks driving by and being drawn in without knowing why? I realize your construction on reality cannot allow for that reality but it was REALITY, TRUTH AND VERY BIBLICAL TRUTH, AT THAT.
YES AND NO.
GOD SAYS, WHOSOEVER WILL MAY COME . . . God wants a dialogue face to face with every one of us. However, there is no formula. About the time folks think they have a formula figured out, God will abandon it. He's too big for fomulas.
I don't know why God chooses some over others who've waited on God seemingly longer and more desperately. I do know that desperate hunger out of an earnest broken and contrite heart before God moves His heart and facilitates such experiences. And I believe that we will live to see the day when most authentic Christians will walk in such a Dialogue with God to greater or lesser degree.
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Evidently you didn't read the whole excerpt. That's the process Tommy described going on endlessly for hours, days. GOD DREW HUNDREDS, IF NOT THOUSANDS INTO JUST THAT SORT OF FACE TO FACE DIALOGUE. And, of course, they didn't want to leave HIS PRESENCE. I know that that's like in lesser but still quite significant measure.
Everyone was humbled to the max--doing extensive "floor time" on their faces before God soaking in His PRESENCE.
NOT AT ALL. Your paradigm is what's filled with errors and misconceptions. I suggest you trash it and ask God to help you build a better one that allows God to be more like God in your life ACCORDING TO HIS PARADIGM, HIS PRESCRIPTION, HIS SENSIBILITIES, HIS PRIORITIES, HIS CREATIVITY, HIS POWER.
Wow. THAT’s a service! I pray our church will have that same hunger and that God will visit our little country church like He did the one in Houston. Hallelujah.
Everyone has their own opinion, that’s why it’s important to read something for yourself. We don’t all get the same thing out of a book or movie either.
I think God is trying to get rid of ritual and hierarchy and drawing us into a close relationship with Him and Him ONLY.
Quix, thanks for this thoughtful post.
For those who have ears to hear, go to Sklar’s link for his latest dated June 29, 2009.
Thank you for the book recommendations. I will look at them and consider reading them.
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
MAY IT SO BE, LORD!
It’s happend on a much smaller degree scale but quite tangibly at my current church.
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