Replies

DEAR HARLEY,
...
Maybe I can do this piecemeal as I pack for the Colo reunion.

I have not read "The Shack" nor do I intend to. Unfortunately my time is limited and I tend to be selective in what I read or study. But given the excerpt you posted above, I would say that it is filled with a bunch of cliches.

The lengthy excerpts were NOT from THE SHACK. They were from Tommy Tenney's THE GOD CHASERS.

First, I doubt that any serious Christian would make the claim that they know all about God from studying His word. Fact is, the more you study, the more you find Him to be a mystery.

I have found that THAT tends to depend on the level of arrogance the "Christian" concerned tends to . . . harbor . . . as well as how much of a "Biblical scholar" they consider themselves to be. Certainly you are right about the authentic "broken and contrite authentic Christians" and I'm confident that Tommy T would agree.

Second, there is something VERY SERIOUSLY WRONG with someone who makes the claim that all they can find in the Bible is "about Jesus" and still want to know more.

Maybe this is a good place to make the observation that your construction on Biblical, theological and conventional reality APPEARS TO BE SUCH that there's ABSOLUTELY NO PROVISION for; no room for; no capacity for God to act OUTSIDE of the box you have Him in. Doesn't mean any evil intent or any such--just a great lack.

In some respects, it's like a 2 dimensional flat-lander trying to fantasize about what life in 4 dimensions is like--or even 3. Only it appears, it sounds like you're not even allowing so much as a possibility of such to even begin to allow the possibility or capacity or attractiveness of even such fantasizing.

In a LOT of respects, it saddens me deeply to think, realize, read you assert that as wonderful and constantly unfolding enlargements on realities about Christ that Scripture is--CHRIST CANNOT BE CONTAINED IN SCRIPTURE. EVEN SCRIPTURE IS TOOOOO FINITE in a list of ways. That you seem to construe it that all of the knowable Christ, Father, Spirit COULD be contained in Scripture boggles my mind. I see you as sharper than to be so limited to such an inaccurate, anemic, UNBiblical perspective on that score.

There is NO way that Scripture, as alive as it is, could possibly be MORE than ABOUT CHRIST, Father, Spirit. The finite book in your hands, on your shelves CANNOT be the living infinite GOD OF ALL CREATION. As J.B. Philips book title exhorted: YOUR GOD IS TOO SMALL.

The Bible IS our relationship to God through which He speaks to our hearts.

Yes and no. Mostly no.

Yes, God speaks to us THROUGH SCRIPTURE. NOT ONLY. As Scripture attests, the He speaks to all individuals through the Heavens, too. Certainly He speaks to us through circumstances.

Certainly any serious Christian for very long has had the experience of Holy Spirit causing a verse or part of a verse to JUMP OUT AT THEM when they've been travailing over a big problem in their lives and suddenly they realize that God has spoken specifically to their concerns, needs, questions about that heavy duty problem very specifically and supernaturally using that verse in the Scripture.

HOWEVER, THAT EXPERIENCE was NOT Scripture per se JUMPING out at them. That was HOLY SPIRIT (the Author) CAUSING SCRIPTURE to jump out at them in specific terms at a specific point in time and space about a specific problem of great need and concern to that specific individual.

NO, EVEN SCRIPTURE IS WHOLLY INADEQUATE to do a stand-in role for the LIVING ALMIGHTY INFINITE GOD OF ALL CREATION in even one single relationship with one single individual--much less all Believers.

The Ten Commandments could not do it. God still invited the Israelites to meet Him at the TENT OF MEETING FOR INTIMATE SUPERNATURAL DIALOGUE WITH THE LIVING GOD. They were afraid to do so and insisted that Moses be the go-between. Moses was inadequate to that task and certainly a finite book of even Scripture is also wholesale inadequate to fill that role.

Certainly Scripture can introduce us, WITH HOLY SPIRIT'S HELP--TO GOD. And Scripture can facilitate our LIVING FOR GOD and even to some degree, our dialogue with God. But it CANNOT fill God Almighty's role of active IN THE PRESENT DIALOGUE with each individual. It cannot. And God knows I've tried every way I know how to get it to fill that role. Doesn't work. Won't work. CANNOT work.

It convict us of sin, righteousness and judgment. I don't know any legitimate Christian that will not tell you they can study the word of God year after year and still find new and exciting things in it. There is no other book like that.

QUITE SO. And that has nothing to do with the point. That is still INADEQUATE--THAT STILL DOES NOT AND CANNOT rise to the level of filling Infinite Almighty God's role and desire to actively dialogue with us on an ongoing basis 1:1.

A person cannot do any better than the word of God.

WRONG. THAT'S an UNBiblical assertion.

Moses had the Ten Commandments and He had ongoing intimate daily dialogue with Almighty God. You think he equated those two? Nonsense!

The Apostles had the Old Testament and a growing body of the New Testament. Post Acts 2 and Pentecost, they also had the Indwelling Holy Spirit carrying on the Dialogue with Almighty God 1:1. They could consider Scriptures as I Cor 12-14 exhorted when evaluating a prophetic utterance. They also had active DIALOGUE WITH THE INFINITE ALMIGHTY GOD 1:1 IN HIS STILL SMALL VOICE way. The two were experienced as quite different in some respects because they were.

And millions of authentic Christians ever since have had similar experiences of dialogue with Almighty Infinite God 1:1 by His Spirit. THAT IS NOT THE SAME AS reading Scripture--even with Holy Spirit unfolding Scripture--there's a difference. Certainly Holy Spirit unfolding Scripture can be part of that 1:1 dialouge. But that Dialogue is not limited to that.

It is the ONLY thing on this earth that ISN'T of this earth.

NOT SO! That's an UNBiblical assertion. HOLY SPIRIT IS ON THE EARTH AND INDWELLS ALL AUTHENTIC BELIEVERS. He is keenly interested in DIALOGUE and facilitating Dialogue with Father and Jesus. As JESUS SAID: MY SHEEP !!!!HEAR!!!! MY !!!!VOICE!!!! Are you calling Jesus a liar?

What the author is saying is that the Bible is simply not enough-a very dangerous position. Think of it as telling God that He didn't provide enough information.

UTTER HOGWASH. GOD SET THE NEW TESTAMENT FORMAT UP AND OUTLINED IT IN I COR 12-14. The fact that many churches do not follow God's insturctions on that score doesn't impress God much at all.

OF COURSE SCRIPTURE doesn't provide exhaustive information about God. Even Scripture itself asserts that the world could not contain all the books describing Christ's doings in his mere 33 earthly years. OF COURSE Scripture was not DESIGNED to speak to every Christian individual about who to marry, what car to buy; which job to take; whether to move to NM or AZ . . . etc. etc.

HOWEVER, GOD ALMIGHTY WANTS to be intimately involved in all those decisions--IN DIALOGUE.

Third, who doesn't know the churches are filled with people who don't know God-especially the liberal Episcopals? These are the tares of the church. True Christians do NOT reflect society but reflect the divine nature of God. We all have our faults but true Christians keep on striving because of God's Spirit. So you can either blame the tares for not knowing God, or you can blame the Christians for not being as perfected as they should be. But what's the point?

That paragraph has nothing to do per se with what Tommy T was talking about--describing--except that Tommy was saying that playing church doesn't cut it compared to GOD SHOWING UP ON THE SCENE WITH *HIS* ****PRESENCE**** TANGIBLY FILLING THE PLACE. There's no way it can. It's night and day different.

Personally, I find the part of him telling about the pastor wanting him to come back again and again because he packed them in was a bit full of pride.

THAT'S 100% HOGWASH. Tommy did NOT PREACH AT ALL from that morning BEFORE the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY SHOWED UP IN POWER AND MIGHT. He was doing all he could manage to feebly run alongside for the ride. He wasn't embarrassed per se because being in God's tangible PRESENCE IS REWARD BEYOND MEASURE. But he wasn't the least bit proud nor were anyone else IN THE ROOM.

YOU HAVE OBSVIOUSLY NOT been in such a meeting. Had you been, you would have KNOWN that PRIDE IN THE OVERT ABJECT OVERWHELMING !!!!PRESENCE!!!! OF GOD GETS OBLITERATED. No one with pride can even stand at all or likely cannot even get inside the doors. One of the first things you find yourself repulsed by and repenting of and pushing away from you as fully and rapidly as possible is pride. You struck out 100% on that allegation. Just absolutely does not at all fit the situation.

Again, Tommy did NOT HAVE A SINGLE THING TO DO with the building being packed. GOD DREW THEM IN SUPERNATURALLY BY HIS SPIRIT. Did you not read of folks driving by and being drawn in without knowing why? I realize your construction on reality cannot allow for that reality but it was REALITY, TRUTH AND VERY BIBLICAL TRUTH, AT THAT.

People who say they "feel" they really are getting close to God reminds me of the many people in the Old Testament who thought they were just as good as Moses before God; everyone of which got quite a surprise-from Koran to Aaron and Marian. It is God who picks out the person who He chooses to talk to face to face-not the other way around.

YES AND NO.

GOD SAYS, WHOSOEVER WILL MAY COME . . . God wants a dialogue face to face with every one of us. However, there is no formula. About the time folks think they have a formula figured out, God will abandon it. He's too big for fomulas.

I don't know why God chooses some over others who've waited on God seemingly longer and more desperately. I do know that desperate hunger out of an earnest broken and contrite heart before God moves His heart and facilitates such experiences. And I believe that we will live to see the day when most authentic Christians will walk in such a Dialogue with God to greater or lesser degree.

Evidently you didn't read the whole excerpt. That's the process Tommy described going on endlessly for hours, days. GOD DREW HUNDREDS, IF NOT THOUSANDS INTO JUST THAT SORT OF FACE TO FACE DIALOGUE. And, of course, they didn't want to leave HIS PRESENCE. I know that that's like in lesser but still quite significant measure.

Everyone was humbled to the max--doing extensive "floor time" on their faces before God soaking in His PRESENCE.

I could go on, but there seems to be plenty to say this book appears to be filled with errors and misconceptions.

NOT AT ALL. Your paradigm is what's filled with errors and misconceptions. I suggest you trash it and ask God to help you build a better one that allows God to be more like God in your life ACCORDING TO HIS PARADIGM, HIS PRESCRIPTION, HIS SENSIBILITIES, HIS PRIORITIES, HIS CREATIVITY, HIS POWER.

...your construction on Biblical, theological and conventional reality APPEARS TO BE SUCH that there's ABSOLUTELY NO PROVISION for; no room for; no capacity for God to act OUTSIDE of the box

There are many people who claim just that; Joseph Smith, Mary Baker-Eddie, Jim Jones... A Christian does NOT need to see God work outside His "box". Like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego; if God wants to work His miracle fine, if He doesn't that's OK too. We still praise God.

There is NO way that Scripture, as alive as it is, could possibly be MORE than ABOUT CHRIST, Father, Spirit.

The purpose of scripture is so that we may believe in Him who He sent. Sure there could have been more written but it was deemed unnecessary for its purpose. But why do you need more that what God has already provided?

Certainly He speaks to us through circumstances.

If you mean He guides us through our circumstances; yes, I would agree. But I would say that He speaks to us through His holy word.

But it CANNOT fill God Almighty's role of active IN THE PRESENT DIALOGUE with each individual.

The only active dialogue we have with God is through His word and the Holy Spirit is given to us to lead us to all true. They WORDS have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee.

That's an UNBiblical assertion. HOLY SPIRIT IS ON THE EARTH AND INDWELLS ALL AUTHENTIC BELIEVERS.

Well, that is true; I forgot about the Holy Spirit. I should have said the only tangible thing...

As JESUS SAID: MY SHEEP !!!!HEAR!!!! MY !!!!VOICE!!!! Are you calling Jesus a liar?

Of course we "hear" His voice. Faith comes from "hearing" the Word of God. Now, does EVERYONE hear His voice? Who are His sheep?

THAT'S 100% HOGWASH. ...Had you been, you would have KNOWN that PRIDE IN THE OVERT ABJECT OVERWHELMING !!!!PRESENCE!!!! OF GOD GETS OBLITERATED.

Perhaps. I would not say that God gets obliterated with pride. Rather I would say God gets distorted. People develop a warp sense of God. Pagans develop idols as to what God might be to themselves. Christians develop conceptions of what God should be. Examples go on and on including the Pharisees and the Saducees.

Your paradigm is what's filled with errors and misconceptions. I suggest you trash it and ask God to help you build a better one

I'll stand by my comments. I would just suggest a meditation refresher on Psalms 119.