Posted on 07/10/2009 5:04:53 AM PDT by Frumanchu
ANAHEIM, Calif. (ABP) -- The presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church called the evangelical notion that individuals can be right with God a "great Western heresy" that is behind many problems facing the church and the wider society.
Describing a United States church in crisis, Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori told delegates to the group's triennial meeting July 8 in Anaheim, Calif., that the overarching connection to problems facing Episcopalians has to do with "the great Western heresy -- that we can be saved as individuals, that any of us alone can be in right relationship with God."
"It's caricatured in some quarters by insisting that salvation depends on reciting a specific verbal formula about Jesus," Jefferts Schori, the first woman to be elected as a primate in the worldwide Anglican Communion three years ago, said. "That individualist focus is a form of idolatry, for it puts me and my words in the place that only God can occupy, at the center of existence, as the ground of being."
Jefferts Schori said countering individualistic faith was one reason the theme chosen for the meeting was "Ubuntu," an African word that describes humaneness, caring, sharing and being in harmony with all of creation.
"Ubuntu doesn't have any 'I's in it," she said. "The 'I' only emerges as we connect -- and that is really what the word means: I am because we are, and I can only become a whole person in relationship with others. There is no 'I' without 'you,' and in our context, you and I are known only as we reflect the image of the One who created us."
Jefferts Schori said "heretical and individualistic understanding" contributes to problems like neglect for the environment and the current worldwide economic recession.
"The sins of a few have wreaked havoc with the lives of many, as greed and dishonesty have destroyed livelihoods, educational possibilities, care for the aged, and multiple forms of creativity," she said. "And that's just the aftermath of Ponzi schemes for which a handful will go to jail."
She said in order to be faithful, "we need to be continually rediscovering that my needs are not the only significant ones."
"Ubuntu implies that selfishness and self-centeredness cannot long survive," she said. "We are our siblings' knowers and their keepers, and we cannot be known without them."
"We have no meaning, no true existence in isolation," she said. "We shall indeed die as we forget or ignore that reality."
About 200 Episcopal bishops and 850 clergy and lay deputies were expected to convene for the 10-day meeting. Business items are set to include debates over human sexuality, politics and poverty.
One resolution being considered calls for "generous discretion" to be extended to clergy in exercising pastoral ministry in six states -- Connecticut, Iowa, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire and Vermont -- where the civil marriage of same-gender couples has been legalized as well as other states that may follow suit in the next three years.
The 2.1-million-member denomination has argued vociferously about homosexuality since 2003, when the group approved the election of its first openly gay bishop, Gene Robinson of New Hampshire. Many more conservative Episcopalians and a handful of congregations have begun breaking away from the church in the years since.
Southern Baptist mega-church pastor Rick Warren, author of The Purpose Driven Life, took sides in his sister denomination's debate recently by showing up in Texas to encourage about 800 Episcopalians attending the first annual meeting of a conservative breakaway group calling itself the Anglican Church in North America.
Warren, who spoke out last fall against legal gay marriage in California, said in January that any nearby Anglican congregation that loses its property after breaking with the U.S. Episcopal Church was welcome to meet on the campus of his Saddleback Church.
-30-
Bob Allen is senior writer for Associated Baptist Press.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
It's why the world changed when men could read the Bible for themselves to learn the truth.
"But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me" -- 1 Corinthians 15:10
Yes. Oh, and burning bushes, too.
Christ is the author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2), no other creature, thing, idea, can replace Him.
They don't replace him, silly. He uses them.
See below for examples.
John 3:14 (cf Numbers 21:6-9)
Numbers 22:1-35 (notice the talking ass saves Balaam's life, from an angel who was about to kill him, and ends up diverting a curse to be pronounced upon Israel into a blessing)
Exodus 3:2-4 (Moses does not worship the burning bush, but it attracts his attention long enough for God to get in a word edgewise, so to speak. And once God has spoken, Moses does not give any "glory" or "reverence" or "devotion" to the bush, but yet always to God, for the wonder manifested in the bush. I guess you could make a case that this is a historical foreshadowing of Christ -- cf. John 14:9 and Hebrews 1:3a, but I won't press the analogy.)
Acts 9:11-12, Paul and the handkerchiefs, or Acts 5:15 about Peter's *shadow*. No healings or miracles are recorded because of this, but there is a parallel to Matthew 5:28, where just touching clothes *did* work -- and we have Jesus's own words that it did "...for I percieve power has gone out of me".
Romans 9:23 ("vessels of His Grace")and 2 Corinthians 4:7 ("But we have this treasure in clay jars to show that its extraordinary power comes from God and not from us." which seems to take us back to the Moses' response to the burning bush.)
As for rituals, see Leviticus 4, especially the recurring phrase "and he shall be forgiven". Then compare Hebrews 10:4 -- there is a difference between atonement (broadly speaking, your penalty is remitted) and sanctification -- your sinful nature is removed, you yourself are cleansed. But recall also (Galatians 3:24) that in a broad sense, the Law itself leads us to Christ. (Which by the way, recalls all kinds of passages from the Psalms about the person who meditates on the Law, and the blessings therein.)
As for doctrine, see 1 Tim 4:16, and compare 1 Tim 1:20...good doctrine can beand is involved in salvation, according to Paul.
Not everything must be exclusively the direct action of the Holy Spirit right on a person's heart, with no intermediaries, "tools", etc.
God does work "heart to heart" but apparently He doesn't limit Himself to that method.
Cheers!
I’m devastated about that, you know (smile).
Amen! Without the indwelling Holy Spirit, we are all dead spiritually. He is the one who convicts us of our sins, comforts us in our sorrows and tribulations, keeps us going when we want to quit. What would we do without Him?
Well you have confused saving faith with signs and wonders. As Jesus said to Nicodemus, you can believe all you want to, but you must be inwardly transformed, and only the indwelling Spirit quickens the spiritually dead
John 3:2
The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
LOLOL!
Well yes it is, "ye must be born again". No 'tool" is going to transform you spiritually, you are dead until the HS quickens you. And as for rituals in the OT, those people were under the Law, and even then they were to understand that the Law saves no one.
YES. We MUST be born again. How many of our Catholic friends are truly born again and have a one to one relationship with Jesus Christ? That is what is needed and what I want to see happening in their lives.
It seems to me the Lord is free to use whatever tools it takes to draw our attention, and to serve as conduits of His Grace. When "harnessed" to God's purpose, they are not ends-in-themselves, but always, always point us to Him.
I have two rules I try to live by: Avoid judging one's neighbor ("Judge not lest ye be judged"); and don't second-guess God (you do not and cannot know His thoughts and ways, nor "predict" His action in any way).
As to the first rule, we are judged by the very same criteria of judgment by which we judge others. And that should give any mindful person pause, to say the least.
As to the second, God is not "limited," not even by the text of Holy Scripture. Not that what He says in Holy Scripture can be contradicted, for God does not contradict Himself. The source of the problem is in the word "text." We must remember that a text is at least a once-remove from spoken Word. Plus text is subject to all the problems and limitations of human natural languages, while the pure Word of God is not.
It seems to me the Bible itself is not an end-in-itself; it is not God's Word directly, but the carrier or bearer or "conduit" of God's Word. If we do not realize this, then it seems to me we are at risk of a very subtle form of idolatry, specifically, bibliolatry....
There seems to be a very strong analogy between the burning bush and the Holy Bible. Both are bearers of God's Word. We are not to worship the bearer; we are to worship God.
And the same pertains to all the other "conduits" that 1000silverlings evidently finds so distasteful, but which often are vitally important in the religious experiences and spiritual life of many other Christians.
1000silverlings, dear brother in Christ, that's an observation, not a "slam." It seems so often that charity towards co-religionists of different confessions is the most difficult type of charity to manifest. And yet the Holy Scriptures tell us that we are One Body in Christ. I pray God's blessings be with you and grey_whiskers and me and all of us.
Thank you so very much, grey_whiskers, dear brother in Christ, for your gracious and illuminating essay/post!
All glory, thanks, and praise be to God!
The purpose of the HS is to point to Christ and in that signs and wonders are manifested when the HS is at work is a direct sign from God that it is God who is doing the working, that's all they are, signs and wonders, they have no intrinsic value to save as evidenced by all the multitudes both in the OT and in the NT, that saw, believed and walked away, unsaved.
The bible avers repeatedly that it is indeed "God's Word directly" so I have no idea where you are coming from with that.
? What are you saying that "I find distasteful", since I haven't said that I find any signs and wonders distasteful and I certainly don't find the workings of the HS distasteful.
Dear brother in Christ, nowhere do I deny that the Bible is (or more strictly speaking, conveys) "God's Word directly." What the question boils down to is this: Can the fullness of God's Word be fully captured in human languages? In short, I am referring to an epistemological problem, a problem on the human side of the divine–human relation. We are, after all, flawed creatures....
I believe this is why the Revelation of Holy Scripture is supplemented by three other Revelations of God: the Incarnation of Christ, the "Book of Nature" (i.e., the Creation itself), and the Presence of the Holy Spirit with us. I rely on all four Revelations for the discernment of God's design and purpose for my life, and for an understanding of this world — this "valley of the shadow" — in which I have my existence.
God has placed you and me in this world for a reason. The Bible stresses God's plan of salvation — but it also instructs us to be faithful stewards and creative cooperators with God's plan for the Creation as well.
Though we may be "heavenly-minded," in mortal life we have duties and responsibilities of a more earthly nature to perform....
Yet I know full well that it is always Christ in whom I live and move and have my being; that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. And the Light which guides my toils in this world, and gives me hope of Life Everlasting in the world to come.
No; but you effectively said you found ritual practices, religious art, and a whole bunch of other things (which you seem largely to associate with the Roman Church) beyond the pale.... In short, you deny that they could ever be legitimate conduits of the Holy Spirit.
Or did I misunderstand you?
Hebrews 1:1
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
The bible is God's revelation to mankind as is Christ. This revelation speaks to spirit through the Spirit, so it doesn't matter what human language it becomes.
Prophets were once the intermediaries standing between God and man, and it was important that the prophet convey the Word of God exactly as spoken to them, or they died as false prophets. What we have written down and passed onto us is no made-up imaginings of men. It is the direct words of God spoken to the fathers through the prophets
The revelation of Jesus Christ as the Son of God and recorded in the New Testament is Truth, and that is what Christians believe. We didn't make it up and neither the revelation of the Spirit nor the spirit of the receiver of the revelation is "flawed".
If you mean by "flawed" that men will seek to make idols of things, , well these men are not saved. (Jeremiah 7)
Certainly the creation is God's handiwork, but too many people get lost in worshipping the creature, thru misunderstanding and their own vain imaginings.(again with the Jeremiah 7)
Well find my direct quote and let’s look at it.
Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. – Matthew 7:1-2
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. – Matthew 6:9-15
And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses. - Mark 11:24-26
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. – Revelation 19:11-16
And we know the difference between the words of God and the words of men. The words of God are spirit and life – the words of men are neither spirit nor life.
And He has used certain people, e.g. Abraham, Moses, David – and whole nations, e.g. Israel. And when He wants us to honor them, He says so, e.g. Mary, and the lady who poured the ointment on Jesus’ head (Matt 26:6-13), and the promise that He will bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse Israel (Gen 12:3)
And He has given us physical acts to perform in remembrance of His will, e.g. Lord’s Supper, washing of each other’s feet, shaking the dust from our feet.
Scriptures are to be treated as holy - nothing is to be taken away or added to the words of God.
Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men. - Mark 7:7
To God be the glory, not man, never man!
Exactly
Them's be the lines in recollection. Problem is, they are Dr. Eckleburg's, at #272. You are cited therein, and in such a way that it appeared my dear sister in Christ expected you would concur. I do apologize, dear bother in Christ, for misattributing them to you.
That was a while back. A whole lot of water's gone over the dam by now....
May God be with you!
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