I don't know; I thought there would be Uma Thurman pictures on the thread.
Posted on 07/09/2009 9:52:34 AM PDT by greyfoxx39
Let There Be Light(s), "Perfect" "Lights" - Illuminating the Urim & Thummim
Research By Kerry A. Shirts
That Joseph Smith claimed to have the Urim & Thummim is simply remarkable. You mean the Urim & Thummim? Yes, but without doubt, most do not have much to go on concerning what they were, nor how Joseph Smith may have utilized them. This paper seeks to understand the Urim & Thummim from ancient times indicating how the ancients used them, why they used them, and how the Urim & Thummim helped Israel. This is the Biblical background for Joseph Smith in other words.
To this day, no one is sure just what these odd things were, nor how they looked. Ideas and presumptions range from "sacred dice"[1] "names given to signify the clearness and certainty of the divine answers"[2] "precious stones of the breastplate"[3] "a sacred lot"[4] a stone like the white stone of Revelations 2:13[5] "marked stones or sticks"[6] "a collective name for the stones of the breastplate"[7] the names "Urim" and "Thummim" were thought to be inscribed on either two stones, or a "plate of gold"[8] "two images" [the first and last Hebrew letters] embroidered on the bag or pouch, "like oracle-images of Egypt."[9] In other words, we just don't have enough information to go on. But we do have enough to get a loose idea of what they were used for, how and when and by whom they were used, which will lead us right up to Joseph Smith and his claims about the Urim & Thummim in rather interesting ways.
Urim & Thummim means "Light" and "Perfection,[10] though it is acknowledged that it might be derived from "arar" - "curse", and Thummim from "tammam," "be whole."[11] The connection with light traditionally is from "'or" meaning instruction (Aramaic "'oraita"). The Greek can mean "declaration/revelation and truth," and the Vulgate, doctrina et veritas, "teaching and truth."[12] The ASV has "flame" for this word at Isa 50:11, whence "fire" (Isa. 31:9; 44:16)[13] Avraham Gileadi's translation of Isa. 50:11 is interesting:
"But you are lighters of fires, all of you, who illuminate with mere sparks. Walk then by the light of your fires and by the sparks you have kindled."[14]
The Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensian text says:
"Now! All of you ones lighting fire, ones providing flaming torches, walk in the light of your fire and of your torches you set ablaze."[15]
Interesting in light (pun, pun) of the etymology most accepted that 'or means "lights", nay the revelation that is received from God on inquiry, as a contrast to this verse of those who set up their own Urim & Thummim, so to speak, their own "torches" or "sparks", i.e. think their own intellect who think this can help them more than God can. The double play perhaps on the word is revealed in the very next verse, the "curse" or "arar", God will simply let them die because they follow their own light ('or), and for refusing God's revelation ('or), they are cursed ("arar"). The play on words is very interesting.
No one doubts that the Urim & Thummim were used as revelators of God's will and decisions to man, hence the "breastplate of decision" which the Urim & Thummim were attatched.[16] In fact, another meaning of Urim has been postulated as "to give oracular response."[17] And some offer the suggestion that the Urim & Thummim represent dual forces, light and dark, much in the manner of the Chinese Yin & Yang, or the Egyptian High Priest who wore around his neck a jeweled image "representing truth on one side and Justice or Light on the other... the precious stones representing Light and Truth."[18] Some conjecture that they are two stones, one white, the other black.[19] In this regard, they correspond to the Babylonian tablets of destiny, known as "Urtu" and "Tamitu."[20]
Interestingly, the tribe of Levi (the Priesthood holders) was entrusted with the divine decisions of the Urim & Thummim, following Deut. 33:8, 10. Adam Clarke noted that Aaron was a type of Jesus, "from whom the Urim - all light and wisdom, and Thummim - all excellence, completion, and perfection are derived, while Matthew Henry noted Aaron being given the Urim & Thummim as the high priest of God, who had been proved, hence "Thummim signifies integrity, and Urim illumination."[21] "What is clear," following Metzger, "is that they were associated with the priestly office...it was though possible for the high priest and the Levites to give a divine oracle with the help of Urim & Thummim."[22]
All authorities are agreed that there was a pouch which held the Urim & Thummim, which was attatched to the breastplate of the ephod. [23] A fascinating view is that the ephod itself is a holdover from paganism, where statues of the gods were clothed in special garments also, and in fact, we see that worship of Gideon's ephod is mentioned at Judges 18:18.[24] The ephod itself was considered a synonym for the Ark of the Covenant, which was itself a miniature temple. "It has been thought that the ephod too was some kind of miniature temple."[25]
There really is no chronological history to know in detail of the Urim & Thummim, though they are mentioned early on, "first mentioned in ancient scripture in Exo. 20:30," [sic - should be Exo. 28:30].[26] Though it's not mentioned in the Bible, one idea of how the priests would know God's answer was when the stones were shining, God was agreeing, when they were dim, God was not allowing or agreeing.[27] The letters of the names of the 12 tribes of Israel were the Urim & Thummim in one interpretation, and they would glow, so they could be read by the one asking the oracle.[28] Josephus also claims this shining aspect.[29] In line with the Ark of the Covenant being a miniature temple tied in with the ephod which had brilliant shining stones on it, two of which have been identified as the Urim & Thummim, I find it worth realizing that the Holy of Holies of Solomon's temple glowed, as did the Ark of the Covenant, when the high priest in his full regalia and dress entered therein! The Holy Grail was also a shining stone, and closely associated with the Ark of the covenant, in that being stone, such as the stone tablets housed in the Ark of the Covenant, was a meteorite from heaven which glowed.[30] A"tube of fire" issued forth from between the Cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant, as well as "two sparks," and "fiery jets" also.[31]
From the Septuagint text of 1 Samuel 14:41 it appears that lots were cast so as to yield either a positive or negative answer to the question.[32] This idea of casting lots was not unique among the ancient Hebrews. The idea was to cast lots to determine questions asked of the oracle, resulting in either negative or positive answers. What was sought after was the "cosmic harmony" and interrelated aspects of events in the people's lives.[33] We know that the ancient Greeks had questions on their lots such as "shall I, or shall I not, do such and such?" The oracle of Zeus at Dodona was a lot oracle where questions were written on lead strips and rolled up.[34] We understand the the oracle of Herakles used a form of divination called "knucklebones" which was very similar to the casting of lots.[35] The ideas of the Knucklebones, casting of lots, and Urim & Thummim are all similar as we understand by one description of the Urim & Thummim being flat stones similar to the puru ("lots") known in Mesoptamia. The Tummim, a term derived from taman ("perfect, without blemish"; hence "innocent, right"), probably indicated an affirmative response, or a response establishing innocence. Therefore Urim is assumed to indicate negative, establishing guilt, hence the Urim & Thummim were like dice, having a negative and affirmative marking on them. The term hoshen ha-mishpat - "breastpiece of judgment" at Exo. 28:15, Lev. 8:8 reflects the use of the Urim & Thummim in this manner. Another phrase mishpat ha-urim (the judgment of the Urim) at Numbers 27:21 is also indicative of this process.[36]
When Joshua was appointed to succeed Moses he was told that Eleazar the High Priest would "ask counsel of him after the Urim" (Numbers 28:21). Thus assuming that counsel means the asking of the Urim & Thummim, we note Joshua 9:14; Judges 1:1-2 may have this in the background.[37] Now, if this assumption is correct, whether it is or is not is not an issue in this paper, then we have some new light on just how long the Urim & Thummim were in use. It is usually acknowledged that "after the establishment of the sanctuary in Jerusalem by David, no further mention is made of this kind of divination by lots and by means of the Urim. That event was the turning point in the whole history of Jewish worship and in the practice of divination."[38] One thing that might account for this is the "stress on the growing role of the prophet than to the actual cessation of consulting the Urim and Thummim."[39] This is a very plausible concept based on the fact that "counsel" (with the assumption of use of the Urim & Thummim) is literally used throughout the Old Testament, especially in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Hosea, Micah, and Zechariah. Thus the information in the Aggadah may be incorrect when it claims that the Urim & Thummim ceased at the death of the first prophets (i.e., the destruction of the first temple), though the Jerusalem Talmud (Sot. 9:14, 24b) says the first prophets were Samuel and David.[40] But we understand that even after the Babylonian Exile that the Urim & Thummim are mentioned as being consulted. In 1 Esdras 5:63, we read: "And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy of the holy things till there rose up a high priest wearing Urim and Thummim."[41] Sirach notes that "a man of discernment discerneth the word, and the Law is faithful unto him as the Urim."[42] In fact, just previous in verse 19 we again see the idea of counsel in relation to Urim! "Without counsel carry out nothing."[43] This is precisely how the Qumran Community utilized their casting of lots, which is thought as being similar to the Urim & Thummim by John Allegro and F.F. Bruce.[44] The 4Q376 fragment of the Dead Sea Scrolls - "The Liturgy of the Three Tongues of Fire", notes that the Urim was in front of the anointed priest.[45]
And in fact this is the fragment(s) in the Dead Sea Scrolls designated as 4Q375, 4Q376, which is the test of a true prophet. We have clues from Josephus about the social situation going on in Israel at this time. He noted that from the time of Artaxerxes that a full history had been recorded, but what was not understood was the exact succession of the prophets.[46] "Josephus believed that prophecy continued to his own day; it was the exact succession of the prophets that had ended, not the phenomenon of prophecy itself. In other words, from about 350B.C.E. to 90 C.E. there had been a succession, but people argued about whether this or that claimant to the office was credible..."[47] The author of these scroll fragments "conceives an elaborate ceremonial trial of sorts, involving the 'anointed priest' (that is, the high priest) and the Ark of the Testimony. He seems to believe that secret laws, unknown to the generality of Israel, are kept in or near the Ark. Therefore the priest retires there and studies to determine whether the prophet is true or false."[48] The fragment specifically states that the prophet is to stand "in front of the anointed priest" who has sacrificed "a bu]llock, young of the herd and a ram" who had the "Urim."[49] The consistency is excellent here, because like the Babylonian "tablets of destiny" and the Egyptian "Stone of Truth" or "Jewel of Discernment" even Abraham's "magnetic stone of power"- instruments by which the will of the deity were communicated to man - "Only a High Priest who was permeated with the Holy Spirit could operate the Urim and Thummim."[50] The Dead Sea Scrolls give us many indications of this. In the Temple Scroll, the "twelve priests and twelve levites" are the group responsible for judgment at Qumran as well as in the future temple in the land of Israel."They are not to sally forth until he has entered the presence of the High Priest and he has consulted for him the decision of the Urim and Tummim... he shall not sally out on the advice of his heart until he has consulted the decision of the Urim and Thummim."[51] The investigation of the prophet, Martinez notes, is "different from what is prescribed in Deuteronomy 13 and 18, comprising an atonement ceremony" and the "oracular use of the Urim could be interpreted as a process of verifying whether in fact the prophet is the eschatalogical prophet or not and not merely whether the prophet is true or false."[52] Perhaps the reason why this was so confusing the Israel at this time was precisely because they wanted to walk on the right or the left of God's law, hence God sent false prophets to them fulfilling their desires! In the Temple Scroll God notes just this situation. "I am putting you to the test, in order to know whether you love YHWH, the God of your fathers..."[53] What is also very enlightening is that the Temple Scroll (Column LX:16-20) describes the sorceries, witchcrafts, divinations, wizards, consulting of spirits and incantations that Israel are not to go after since the Lord tells Israel "these things are an abomination to me."[54] Clearly, the Urim and Thummim being the divine lot, the divine stones, that Israel consulted were not in the abominable categories of other types of divinations listed in the Dead Sea Scrolls and in Ancient Israel. They certainly were not considered to be magic. "Dreams, visions, and the Urim and Thummim" were three legitimate ways of communicating with the divine in the Dead Sea Scrolls ancient Israelite Community.[55] The Urim and Thummim were the most important source for them, especially noted in the Pesharim, wherein the council of the community are liken to the sapphire stones of the breastplate of Aaron, which council are "illuminated with the judgment of the Urim and Thummim...of its lot, their functions."[56] In the 4Q Catena we read "Upon this single stone there are seven eyes; see] its inscriptions is engraved, oracle of YHWH."[57] Again we meet the stone's remarkable shining abilities in the 4QLiturgy of the Three Tongues of Fire (4Q376) - "the stone of the left side which is at its left side will shine in the eyes of all the assembly until the priest finishes speaking."[58] The IQS (The Rule of the Community) equates the lot with the function of the Urim and Thummim, especially regarding the priests role, "Only the sons of Aaron will have authority in the matter of judgment and of goods, and their word will settle the lot of all provision for the men of the Community."[59] Quite pointedly, the Dead Sea Scrolls (The Damascus Document) state that it is the seers who establish truth! "And he taught them by the hand of the anointed ones through his holy spirit and through seers of the truth."[60]
So what do we have? We have an instrument which was used to communicate with the divine, exactly as Joseph Smith used the Urim & Thummim. We have an instrument which communicated to man either in writing, or as lots, which is how Joseph Smith utilized the Urim & Thummim. We have an instrument which indicated truth, and which said "anointed priests" and "seers" would establish truth. Joseph Smith was a "seer" in the strictest and holiest sense of the word with his use of the Urim & Thummim. While this paper has not utilized the Book of Mormon's view, nor delved into the issues Joseph Smith was involved with, we see a consistency of his teachings with the ancient precepts taught about the Urim & Thummim, one of which is one of my favorites, Joseph Smith's teaching that God dwells in everlasting burnings and light, exactly what the Urim & Thummim indicate as well. A true prophet was tested via the Urim & Thummim, nay true prophets would possess it! Joseph Smith claimed to have possessed it also. Joseph Smith has been accused of delving into necromancy, magic and divination, yet we have also clearly seen that the idea of "seer stones", for that is the definition of the Urim & Thummim, was not considered to be evil witchcraft, magic, and occult seership at all. The Urim & Thummim were outside the evil realm, and clearly used in Godly contexts both in ancient times, and modern times. No one else in his day even thought of this novel avenue, yet it was very necessary in order to establish who had authority, both in ancient times and in our day, of which Joseph Smith proclaimed he indeed, did have the authority of God. Other papers will discuss the other issues, this being concentrated more on the ancient background of the Urim & Thummim, how it worked, why, and for whom, of which, in our opinion, is fervent testimony in favor of Joseph Smith.
Endnotes at link
1. Robert G. Boling & G. Ernest Wright, Joshua, The Anchor Bible Series, Doubleday, 1982, pp.16, 68, 221, 265, 281, 315, 353. See also Solomon Reinach, Orpheus: A History of Religions, Liveright Publishing, N.Y., 5th printing, 1942, p. 194, tying the dice in with divination.
2. Samuel Johnson, A Dictionary of the English Language, as found in The Interpreter's Bible, Abingdon Press, 1952, Vol. 1, p. 1042.
3. Jamieson, Fausset, Brown, in The Bethany Parallel Commentary on the Old Testament, Bethany House Publishers, 1985, p. 202.
4. F.F. Bruce, The English Bible, Oxford Univ. Press, 1970, p. 192; The New American Bible, Catholic Biblical Association, P.J. Kennedy & Sons, 1970, p. 105, n. 28, 30 "Urim and Thummim." Also, The Westminster Study Edition of the Holy Bible, 1948, p. 131.
5. John Elder, Prophets, Idols and Diggers, Bobbs Merrill Co., 1960, p. 228.
6. Encyclopedia Judaica, [Hereafter cited as EJ] Keter Publishing, 1971, p. 8.
7. The New Schofield Reference Bible, 1967, p. 108, n. 1.
8. Rev. William Gurney, The Diamond Pocket Dictionary of the Holy Bible, J. Hadden Finsbury, 1829, p. 449. Cf. The Eerdman's Bible Dictionary, Allen C. Myers, ed., 1987, p. 1032, "They may have been pebbles or sticks, or made from a precious metal."
9. Brown Driver, Briggs, Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1951, p. 22.
10. Gesenius, Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon of the Old Testament, Baker Book House, 1979, p. 23, also noting Luther's claim of "Licht und Recht."
11. EJ, p. 8.
12. EJ, p. 8. Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1980, p.139, 176. Notice how he completely skips any mention of the Urim & Thummim however. See David Godwin, Cabalistic Encyclopedia, Llewellyn Publications, 1994, pp. 308, 320. Papus, The Tarot of the Bohemians, translated from the French by A. P. Morton, Studio Editions, reprint, 1995, p. 136 for card 7, the Chariot, having the Urim & Thummim. See also Smith's Bible Dictionary, Thomas Nelson, 1962, p. 723. Isaac Asimov, Asimov's Guide to the Bible, Avon, 1971, pp. 149f, 176.
13. R. Laird Harris, Gleason L. Archer, Jr., Bruce K. Waltke, Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, [Hereafter cited as TWOT], Moody Press, 1980, p. 26.
14. Avraham Gileadi, The Apocalyptic Book of Isaiah, Hebraeus Press, 1982, p. 130f.
15. John R. Kohlenberger III, ed., The NIV Interlinear Hebrew-English Old Testament, Four Volumes in One, Regency Reference Library, Zondervan, 1987, vol. 4, p. 104.
16. The New Catholic Encyclopedia, McGraw-Hill, 1967, Vol XIV, p. 488. See also F.F. Bruce, Ibid., p. 193.
17. Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, F.L. Cross, ed., Oxford Univ. Press, 1966, p. 1399.
18. Elizabeth E. Goldsmith, Life Symbols, G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1928, pp. 81f.
19. Bruce M. Metzger, Michael D. Coogan, The Oxford Companion to the Bible, Oxford Univ. Press, 1993, p. 786.
20. The New Harper's Bible Dictionary, Harper & Row, 1973, p. 792.
21. Both in the Bethany Parallel Commentary, pp. 384f.
22. Metzger, Ibid., p. 786.
23. The New Interpreter's Bible, Abingdon Press, 1994, vol. 1, p. 1061.
24. Everett Fox, The Five Books of Moses, Schocken Books, 1995, p. 539. Cf. Brown, Driver, Briggs, p. 22.
25. The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, Abingdon Press, 1962, vol. 2, p. 118.
26. H. Clay Gorton, The Legacy of the Brass Plates of Laban, Horizon Publishers, 1994, p. 30.
27. Gurney, Ibid., p. 449.
28. Gurney, Ibid., p. 449.
29. Josephus, Antiquities, Kregel, 1981, book III, chapters 8, 9. See also Brown Driver, Briggs, p. 22.
30. Graham Hancock, The Sign and the Seal, Crown Publishers, 1992, p. 66-70.
31. Hancock, Ibid., p. 275, quoting Ginzberg's Legends of the Jews.
32. Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensian Hebrew text, Kohlenberger, Ibid., vol. 2, p. 195.
33. Mercea Eliade, The Encyclopedia of Religion, MacMillan, 1987, vol. 11, p. 82.
34. Eliade, Ibid., p. 82.
35. Eliade, Ibid., p. 83.
36. Eliade, Ibid., vol. 8, p. 529.
37. R.J. Zwi Werblowsky, Geoffrey Wigoder, Eds., The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion, Holt Rhinehart & Winston, 1966, p. 291. See also the Pseudo-Philo, 22:9, which indicates that all things were revealed at Shilo by the Urim and Thummim. The people were actually taught by the Urim and Thummim at Shilo, Pseudo-Philo, 22:8. The election of Kenaz and the wicked schemes of men against him were revealed through the Urim and Thummim, Pseduo-Philo, 25:5. Phineas asked the Urim and Thummim whether to go to battle or not, in Pseudo-Philo, 46:2. Interestingly, the footnote says Urim and Thummim mean "the demonstration and truth." In The Lives of the Prophets, 22:3, we read that when Elisha was born, the Urim indicated that he would destroy the idols and images of the land. Pseudo-Philo and Lives of the Prophets found in James H. Charlesworth, The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, 2 vols., Doubleday & Co., 1985, vol. 2, pp. 332, 335, 360f, 397.
38. Hastings Encyclopedia of Religion & Ethics, Charles Scribner's Sons, vol. 4, p. 813.
39. Werblowsky, Ibid., p. 291.
40. EJ, p.10. Cf. Harper's Bible Dictionary, Paul J. Achtemeier, ed., Society of Biblical Literature, Harper and Row, 1985, p. 1108 where it says the Urim & Thummim in Ezra 2:63; Nehemiah 7:65 are "just a memory transmuted into an indefinite future."
41. R.H. Charles, The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, Oxford, Clarendon Press, reprinted 1978, vol. 1, p. 37f.
42. Charles, Ibid., p. 428. A variant reads "and the Law is for him an amulet, a band on the hand." in the footnote below the text in Charles.
43. Charles, Ibid., p. 427.
44. John Allegro, The Dead Sea Scrolls: A Reappraisal, Pelican Books, reprint 1966, p. 111, "The Priesthood formed a kind of Second Chamber, and their decision was regarded as divinely inspired, and was revealed by a casting of the lot, probably some oracular device such as the biblical Urim and Thummim." F.F. Bruce notes, New Testament History, Doubleday-Galilee, 1980, p. 105, "certain important matters were to be decided by lot, which was cast under the direction of the sons of Aaron. This preserved the tradition of earlier days in Israel when the will of God was ascertained by the priests by means of the sacred lot, the Urim and Thummim."
45. Florentino Garcia Martinez, The Dead Sea Scrolls Translated, E.J. Brill, 1994, p. 279.
46. Michael Wise, Martin Abegg, Jr., and Edward Cook, The Dead Sea Scrolls: A New Translation, HarperSanFrancisco, 1996, p. 336.
47. Wise, Ibid., p. 336.
48. Wise, Ibid., p. 336.
49. Martinez, Ibid., p. 279.
50. Hugh Nibley, The Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri, Deseret Book, 1976, p. 121.
51. Martinez, Ibid., p. 175.
52. Martinez, "Messianic Hopes in the Qumran Writings," in Donald W. Parry, Dana M. Pike, eds., LDS Perspectives on the Dead Sea Scrolls, FARMS, 1997, pp. 153f.
53. Martinez, The Dead Sea Scrolls Translated, p. 172.
54. Martinez, The Dead Sea Scrolls Translated, p. 176.
55. All in Martinez's excellent translation, above note 45: The Books of Enoch, Column IV:7-10, "I related all [the visions which I had seen in dreamsand I began to speak]...[I dreamt. In that vision I saw in my dream..." (p. 251). Note the peculiarly ancient concept of mixing dreams and visions, exactly as Lehi did. He proclaimed I have dreamed a dreamed or in other words I have seen a vision," at 1 Nephi 8:2. Cf. also Enoch Fragment 4 (= 1 Enoch 89:31-37), (p. 253, 256), Visions of Amram, Frag 1:10 - "in my vision, the vision of my dream" (p. 273), cf. Lehi! The Targums, Column XXII (=Job 33:6-16), (p. 147); the poetic texts, (11Q5 XXIV), (p. 308 in Martinez) - "Acquire the vision spoken in your regard, the prophets' dreams requested for you!" Vision of Samuel (4Q160), "Let me know the vision of God!" (p., 284 in Martinez). 4Q Psalms, Col. VIII, Hymn to Zion, "Accept a vision spoken in your regard, a prophet's dream requested for you!", (p. 303 in Martinez); R.H. Charles, Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, Oxford Univ. Press, reprint, 1979, Vol. 2, notes this interesting mix of dreams and visions in many works, the Book of Enoch, pp. 250f, 260, The Testament of Levi, pp. 308f, Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, pp. 361f, 4 Ezra, pp. 608f, 613f, 616f, 618f.
56. Martinez, 4QIsaiah Pesher (4Q164), p. 190f.
57. Martinez, p. 210.
58. Martinez, p. 279. Cf "When [the lights of the holy vault] shine out, when they retire to the abode of glory...It is a great day for the holy of holies..." p. 25. In the 4Q260:Fragment 1, column II, we read that the priest(?) rotates in the vault of light! Cf. the Rameumptum idea in the Book of Mormon. Also Hugh Nibley, Since Cumorah, pp. 275f, where he notes that the "Remb-", "Ramp-", "rhampgh", ideas imply circular motion, endless gyrations, which is what the Dead Sea Scroll fragment indicates in the holy of holies! In fact, the holy ones themselves are said to shine and will assist in the truth, Martinez, p. 96. John Macquarrie has noted that the very word "epiphany" is from the same Greek root "phos" meaing "light", which indicates something that has been unveiled and revealed which was previously hidden in his article "Symbolism Case Study: Light as a Religious Symbol," John Maier, Vincent Tollers, eds., The Bible in its Literary Milieu, Eerdmans, 1979, p. 405. The Septuagint, (the Greek Old Testament), also uses "Phos" as one of the words for the Urim, which of course was one of its functions, to reveal the hidden, unknown, the answer to the question.
59. Martinez, p. 13, also consult pp. 10, 18, 20, 21, 23, 24, 26, 32, 85, etc.
60. Martinez, p. 34.
On all threads, but particularly “open” threads, posters must never “make it personal.” Reading minds and attributing motives are forms of “making it personal.” Making a thread “about” another Freeper is “making it personal.”
When in doubt, review your use of the pronoun “you” before hitting “enter.”
Like the Smoky Backroom, the conversation may be offensive to some.
Thin-skinned posters will be booted from “open” threads because in the town square, they are the disrupters.
http://www.freerepublic.com/~religionmoderator/
Thin-skinned (emotional, whiney or mercurial temper) posters are the disruptors on open threads.
Ping
So...do Mormons ever come on these threads, or is this basically an anti-Mormon ridicule-fest?
I don't know; I thought there would be Uma Thurman pictures on the thread.
Strange that yours an early post. I haven’t seen any ridicule on these posts. It is an opportunity for those who are blocked from closed doctrinal Mormon threads to discuss similar points from a different point of view. If you wish to defend do so. If not fine. It is a legitimate set of topics and frequently has good commentary
perfect. At least we know who she is
The article on this thread is written by the very same author that has been lauded in the closed caucus threads lately. If it seems ridiculous, so be it.
Mormons are perfectly welcome to come on these threads, unlike the threads posted by mormons on which NO ONE BUT mormons are allowed....since they have 60,000 missionaries every year going out and telling Christians that their faith is "abominable", a few threads on FR allowing rebuttal to their message seems fair to me.
LOL...
This too can be illuminating...
I never really get the “no dog in this fight” posters...
OK, that’s a lie...
I got some OTHER 'papers' for you to read!
Interesting choice of words...
Just WHAT is RIDICULING about posting research from MORMON sources??
I don't CARE what he found out, but I DO know that I believe it!
--MormonDude(I trust ALL of our leaders: past and present)
It almost sounds like you might be embarrassed by the words the Mormons themselves have published.
From the fact that Mormons seldom come on these threads to defend their sects own published words, I guess they might be embarrassed too.
No, we have smith with his face in a hat looking at his stone. I guess that is less attractive than the noble prophet wearing the U & T reading the plates and translating (promoting the lie over the facts).
So what do we have? We have an instrument which was used to communicate with the divine, exactly as Joseph Smith used the Urim & Thummim.
____________________________________________
Well, if that’s what he thought he had why didnt he know what they were and who should use them and how ????
Why didnt Joey Smith just ask his spirit guide, father divine ???
It always pays to go to the source...
But when dealing with the things of God ask God...
The Jews had Urim and Thummim also...
But that time it was God’s design...
and just said Yes or No...
But the pagan joey Smith would not have known that...
He discounted the Bible and didnt read it...
Just plagarized whole Chapters for profit...
Exd 28:30 And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron’s heart, when he goeth in before the LORD: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the LORD continually.
Lev 8:8 And he put the breastplate upon him: also he put in the breastplate the Urim and the Thummim.
Num 27:21 And he shall stand before Eleazar the priest, who shall ask [counsel] for him after the judgment of Urim before the LORD: at his word shall they go out, and at his word they shall come in, [both] he, and all the children of Israel with him, even all the congregation.
Deu 33:8 And of Levi he said, [Let] thy Thummim and thy Urim [be] with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, [and with] whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;
1Sa 28:6 And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
Ezr 2:63 And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and with Thummim.
Neh 7:65 And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood [up] a priest with Urim and Thummim.
“It almost sounds like you might be embarrassed by the words the Mormons themselves have published.”
I might if I were mormon. I just like to watch a good fight and was wondering if this thread is a good place for it or if it is just an echo chamber.
They usually don’t show up - can’t seem to actually defend their own claims.
These threads are usually posted in response to the threads that Mormons post that are closed to comment. It’s a way to have dialog about facts that are often in dispute on their “caucus” or “devotional” threads. They seem to fear letting anyone actually have a chance to refute their claims.
So here we are. Hope you liked it.
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