Posted on 06/30/2009 8:07:46 AM PDT by NYer
The treatment for terminal cancer that Annapolis resident Mary Ellen Heibel took at Johns Hopkins Hospital in 2004 and early 2005 worked beyond anyone's wildest hopes, wiping out malignant tumors in her lungs, liver, stomach and chest. Her doctor did not expect it, nor could he explain it.
Surely the outcome was remarkable, but was it - in the sense applied by the Roman Catholic Church in such cases - a miracle?
In a few weeks, a committee appointed by the Archdiocese of Baltimore will begin exploring that question, examining 11 witnesses, including Heibel, pressing her doctors, nurses and friends in an attempt to understand what happened. The findings gathered at the archdiocese's downtown offices will be shipped to Rome, and ultimately will bear on a campaign to have Francis X. Seelos, the 19th-century Maryland priest to whom Heibel had turned in prayer for help, canonized as a saint.
For only the fifth time in its 200-year history, the archdiocese has launched a test of faith and science to help the Vatican determine whether one of its own was not only exemplary in virtue during life but now has the power in death to intercede with God. In the end, it will be up to the pope to rule on whether Seelos is to join the men and women held up by the church through the centuries as models of holiness.
"Did what happened come about by the intercession of Blessed Seelos? That's what we have to discover," said the Rev. Gilbert J. Seitz, the judicial vicar who heads the committee, emphasizing that its job is not to judge the case but to gather information in a process akin to taking a deposition.
(Excerpt) Read more at baltimoresun.com ...
**wearing a charm**
Don’t you love the inaccuracy and ill-informed writings of the modern media?
It’s a relic!
Now an amputee growing back a limb, that would be a miracle. But we all know that God doesn't do that.
I find it strange that when Jesus, Peter, ect. did real miracles, a committee wasn’t needed to determine if it was a miracle.
I also find it strange that the New Testament defines saints as Christians who are set apart in Christ - not people who get voted in by doing a certain number of qualifying miracles
based on whether someone prayed to them or not.
I also find it strange that if praying to dead people was so
important, why doesn’t the Bible encourage, exhort or command
Christians to do this - at least one time???
2 Macc. 15:12-16
“I don’t think it means what you think it means”
- Princess Bride
” ..why doesn’t the Bible encourage, exhort or command Christians to do this - at least one time??? “
Not an encouragement to do so
Not an exhortation to do so
Not a command to do so
Not written to Christians, but to Jews...
It’s a charming relic. ;-)
In Matthew 17:1-3, Mark 9:4 and Luke 9:30-31, deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.
“Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth.”
Arguments from silence are not convincing. Given that God
commands us to do or not do many things and gives us
His word that is profitable for godliness, and we find
NOTHING about praying to saints ever, your position is
weak.
“To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints.”
Would you point me to that passage where God encourages Christians to pray to or talk with saints who are no longer breathing on Earth?
The passage of Moses and Elijah has nothing to do with this
topic.
Well, they talked to us, or in particular to John the author of the Apocalypse. But when you stipulate “ no longer breathing on earth.” I assume you believe that the dead are asleep until judgment day. That is a theological statement , not a Scriptural formulation.
“Well, they talked to us, or in particular to John the author of the Apocalypse.”
John was caught up into a vision.
“But when you stipulate “ no longer breathing on earth.” I assume you believe that the dead are asleep until judgment day. That is a theological statement , not a Scriptural formulation.”
Actually, I said it the way I did because I wanted to single
out saints who are not physically on earth. I believe that
all saints who die physically are present with Christ and
enjoying the fellowship of God and each other!
Pretty nifty.
But their remains are physically on earth. And in John’s vision, they are very much aware of what is happening on earth. They expect vindication, not earthly justice so much as a return to their humanity in triumph. If they have a stake in things, then why should they want to forget those left behind?
“But their remains are physically on earth.”
And that means what? The remains can hear you? For instance,
let’s say you have a fragment of a leg bone. Can the leg
bone hear you?
“And in John’s vision, they are very much aware of what is happening on earth.”
Of course they are. They are involved in the conclusion of
God’s great plan for history in this vision.
This is very, very different than assuming they hear you,
if you should speak to them, or have extra influence in
heaven. It isn’t the basis that any Biblical scholar would
use to create a doctrine.
“They expect vindication, not earthly justice so much as a return to their humanity in triumph. If they have a stake in things, then why should they want to forget those left behind?”
Again, this is an argument from silence. It may be correct
that they don’t forget. That is very, very different than
a Biblical teaching or command that we should pray to them.
You may find some comfort in arguing backwards to justify
an action that you may already be committed to. Your call
there. I personally, don’t find arguments from silence to
be convincing - nor the basis for Christian life.
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness...”
Why go with speculation when you have exactly what God teaches
written down?
best,
ampu
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