How Old Is Your Church?

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[Salvation]

How Old Is Your Church?

If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex- monk of the Catholic Church, in the year 1517.

If you belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.

If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560.

If you are a Protestant Episcopalian, your religion was an offshoot of the Church of England founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th century.

If you are a Congregationalist, your religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582.

If you are a Methodist, your religion was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.

If you are a Unitarian, Theophilus Lindley founded your church in London in 1774.

If you are a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, N.Y., in 1829.

If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1605.

If you are of the Dutch Reformed church, you recognize Michaelis Jones as founder, because he originated your religion in New York in 1628.

If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.

If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your religion was born and to Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.

If you belong to one of the religious organizations known as 'Church of the Nazarene," "Pentecostal Gospel." "Holiness Church," "Pilgrim Holiness Church," "Jehovah's Witnesses," your religion is one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past century.

If you are Catholic, you know that your religion was founded in the year 33 by Jesus Christ the Son of God, and it is still the same Church.

[Cronos]

Pretty much from a group of Greek speaking Eastern Bishops listed to this day in our dyptichs, not Rome’s

Actually, don't the Coptics say that this was first preached by the Patriarch of Alexandria? So wouldn't he have been Coptic speaking? Though, of course Greek was the lingua franca of the East so it could have been Greek it was first taught in.

[Cronos]

So, of course you have no problem with the persecution of Catholics in England, Ireland, Scotland, etc?

[Cronos]

Why would the Orthodox EVER take the side of muslims over Armenians, Chaldean or Coptic Christians? I don’t get that — does it really happen? And why?

[Cronos]

Apostolic succession prevents the creeping in of errors like the Christian Scientists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons etc. which are examples of sub-sub-sub-sub-splits within Protestant groups. Those are the inevitable end-game along with Unitarians leading to the Western Reformed Branch of PresbyLutheranism.

[Cronos]

The Sacking of Constantinople was not at the Church’s urging — that was the soldiers doing. It was wrong and it IS wrong of you to blame the Church of that. The Franks came to save the Byzantines’ butts (note: I’m talking about politics here not religion).

[Cronos]

Protestant denominations can’t call The Church a withering limb because we are The Body you broke away from. :)

[Cronos]

Some Catholics are from Rome, most are not

yousa mean you're not Italian? Che stupido!!! :)

[Cronos]

Well, then, please don't consider us Orthodox as such because we don't consider all who call themsleves Christians to be brothers and sisters in Christ

But kosta, Yudan says "Aside from that, the Orthodox Church does not make pronouncements or declarations about where the Lord isn’t."

[Cronos]

There were persecutions of Catholics by Protestants, Protestants by Catholics, Catholics by Orthodox, Orthodox by Catholics. Sad, but true. Were the political masters more crueler even during the “Inquisition”? Yes, as numerous posts on this thread attest. Was The Church the sole and only persecutor? NO. Blame can be shared by Lutherans, Puritans, etc.

[Cronos]

HEY! NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!!!

In the early years of the 16th century, to combat the rising tide of religious unorthodoxy, the Pope gave Cardinal Ximinez of Spain leave to move without let or hindrance throughout the land, in a reign of violence, terror and torture that makes a smashing film. This was the Spanish Inquisition...

---

(this transcript is also available with screen shots from the original)

Chapman: Trouble at mill.
Cleveland: Oh no - what kind of trouble?
Chapman: One on't cross beams gone owt askew on treadle.
Cleveland: Pardon?
Chapman: One on't cross beams gone owt askew on treadle.
Cleveland: I don't understand what you're saying.
Chapman: [slightly irritatedly and with exaggeratedly clear accent] One of the cross beams has gone out askew on the treadle.
Cleveland: Well what on earth does that mean?
Chapman: *I* don't know - Mr Wentworth just told me to come in here and say that there was trouble at the mill, that's all - I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition.

[JARRING CHORD]

[The door flies open and Cardinal Ximinez of Spain [Palin] enters, flanked by two junior cardinals. Cardinal Biggles [Jones] has goggles pushed over his forehead. Cardinal Fang [Gilliam] is just Cardinal Fang]

Ximinez: NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.

[The Inquisition exits]

Chapman: I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition.

[JARRING CHORD]

[The cardinals burst in]

Ximinez: NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope, and nice red uniforms - Oh damn!
[To Cardinal Biggles] I can't say it - you'll have to say it.
Biggles: What?
Ximinez: You'll have to say the bit about 'Our chief weapons are ...'
Biggles: [rather horrified]: I couldn't do that...

[Ximinez bundles the cardinals outside again]

Chapman: I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition.

[JARRING CHORD]

[The cardinals enter]

Biggles: Er.... Nobody...um....
Ximinez: Expects...
Biggles: Expects... Nobody expects the...um...the Spanish...um...
Ximinez: Inquisition.
Biggles: I know, I know! Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. In fact, those who do expect -
Ximinez: Our chief weapons are...
Biggles: Our chief weapons are...um...er...
Ximinez: Surprise...
Biggles: Surprise and --
Ximinez: Okay, stop. Stop. Stop there - stop there. Stop. Phew! Ah! ... our chief weapons are surprise...blah blah blah. Cardinal, read the charges.
Fang: You are hereby charged that you did on diverse dates commit heresy against the Holy Church. 'My old man said follow the--'
Biggles: That's enough.
[To Cleveland] Now, how do you plead?
Clevelnd: We're innocent.
Ximinez: Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

[DIABOLICAL LAUGHTER]

Biggles: We'll soon change your mind about that!

[DIABOLICAL ACTING]

Ximinez: Fear, surprise, and a most ruthless-- [controls himself with a supreme effort] Ooooh! Now, Cardinal -- the rack!

[Biggles produces a plastic-coated dish-drying rack. Ximinez looks at it and clenches his teeth in an effort not to lose control. He hums heavily to cover his anger]

Ximinez: You....Right! Tie her down.

[Fang and Biggles make a pathetic attempt to tie her on to the drying rack]

Ximinez:Right! How do you plead?
Clevelnd: Innocent.
Ximinez: Ha! Right! Cardinal, give the rack [oh dear] give the rack a turn.

[Biggles stands their awkwardly and shrugs his shoulders]

Biggles: I....
Ximinez: [gritting his teeth] I *know*, I know you can't. I didn't want to say anything. I just wanted to try and ignore your crass mistake.
Biggles: I...
Ximinez: It makes it all seem so stupid.
Biggles: Shall I...?
Ximinez: No, just pretend for God's sake. Ha! Ha! Ha!

[Biggles turns an imaginary handle on the side of the dish-rack]

[Cut to them torturing a dear old lady, Marjorie Wilde]

Ximinez: Now, old woman -- you are accused of heresy on three counts -- heresy by thought, heresy by word, heresy by deed, and heresy by action -- *four* counts. Do you confess?
Wilde: I don't understand what I'm accused of.
Ximinez: Ha! Then we'll make you understand! Biggles! Fetch...THE CUSHIONS!

[JARRING CHORD]

[Biggles holds out two ordinary modern household cushions]

Biggles: Here they are, lord.
Ximinez: Now, old lady -- you have one last chance. Confess the heinous sin of heresy, reject the works of the ungodly -- *two* last chances. And you shall be free -- *three* last chances. You have three last chances, the nature of which I have divulged in my previous utterance.
Wilde: I don't know what you're talking about.
Ximinez: Right! If that's the way you want it -- Cardinal! Poke her with the soft cushions!

[Biggles carries out this rather pathetic torture]

Ximinez: Confess! Confess! Confess!
Biggles: It doesn't seem to be hurting her, lord.
Ximinez: Have you got all the stuffing up one end?
Biggles: Yes, lord.
Ximinez [angrily hurling away the cushions]: Hm! She is made of harder stuff! Cardinal Fang! Fetch...THE COMFY CHAIR!

[JARRING CHORD]

[Zoom into Fang's horrified face]

Fang [terrified]: The...Comfy Chair?

[Biggles pushes in a comfy chair -- a really plush one]

Ximinez: So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair!

[They roughly push her into the Comfy Chair]

Ximinez [with a cruel leer]: Now -- you will stay in the Comfy Chair until lunch time, with only a cup of coffee at eleven. [aside, to Biggles] Is that really all it is?
Biggles: Yes, lord.
Ximinez: I see. I suppose we make it worse by shouting a lot, do we? Confess, woman. Confess! Confess! Confess! Confess
Biggles: I confess!
Ximinez: Not you!

[Cronos]

Notice one glaring omission here: no teaching office. If there is no central unchanging unchallengable authority, then somebody is going off the rails, sooner or later. That is now what has happened and it has left a remnant of the Anglican Communion rather wandering in a wilderness.

Exactly!!!

The Orthodox too have a council and within Greece, say, The Greek Orthodox Patriarch has primacy. Ditto for the Coptic Church -- can you (or me for that matter) even imagine the faith that it has taken to remain TRUE to Christianity for 1400 years under Muslim rule and persecution? Ditto for the Chaldean/Assyrian Christians and the Maronites and the Palestinian Christians. Admirable people

[Cronos]

a friend is being enrolled as a catechumen.

Congratulations to your friend ad you. Please welcome your friend on my behalf to The Church.

[Cronos]

But my first point remains: what is the Biblical foundation for the papacy?

Sigh... ok, so what organization do you deem the proper way to steward the flock for millenia? The Pope is, remember, the Patriarch of the West. The Patriarch of the Copts, the Patriarch of the Greeks, the Catholicos of the Assyrian Church etc. all are of equal dignity to the Pope. Ditto for the Patriarchs within the Catholic Church like the Catholicos of the Syro-Malabar, the Patriarch of the Maronites etc. -- all equal in dignity and respect.

These Bishops are charged with being shepherds for Christ's flock. And that has kept their communities and Churches alive through millenia of persecution

In contrast, the congregationalist/presbyterian policy of "let's choose our own and sola scriptura" has disintegrated over the few centuries of the presbyterian movement -- there are many believers among Presbyterians and good Christians, but the organization as a whole has falled apart.

The other method, of the lutherans and Anglicans of retaining the episcopate but having no bishop as first among equals has also failed -- you see here where you have the ELCA, LCMS, etc. etc. and among the Anglicans, Gene Robinson can choose what he wants

That doesn't work either.

Finally, you have the "Born-Agains" who basically follow one guy who calls himself a pastor, then jump ship when they don't like tea being served instead of coffee.

Those organizations are not viable and have not lasted.

In contrast, the organization based on parishs --> dioceses --> primacy of one bishop HAS worked. This was based on the old Roman Empire, yes, but don't forget that the Roman Empire was the longest lasting, STABLE organization. Ditto for the method followed by the Apostolic Churchs -- the organizational form is the longest lasting

Does it stay TRUE to the teachings of Christ? Yes, I would argue -- any of the points you've brought up are debatable and HAVE been debated ad nauseum. The EO are right in calling for a council to thrash out various debating points of faith as each council has been of The Church as a whole trying to understand God -- a perfect example being the Council of Nicea which clearly stated the Christian Orthodox point of view in opposition to the Arians and Nestorians.

[Scanian]

It’s a little book—a pamphlet, really—which discusses the Baptist movement since early times.

[Scanian]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trail_of_Blood

[Scanian]

I agree to a large extent. I once had a pastor who promoted the booklet. I mentioned to him that some of the groups that “Trail” lists as Baptist were people who would not be welcome in his church. Tongue-talkers, for instance.

[Cronos]

A question: I attend - and am a member of - a local Free Methodist church, and I am an elder at that church. Am I part of the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?

Let's separate YOU from the organization you belong to for a minute. First let's talk about the Methodists. The Methodists broke away from the Anglicans who retained Apostolic succession and many orthodox teachings. I don't know what the Free Methodist Church is in correlation to the other Methodists? Are you guys directly from John Wesley? Are you guys related to the Free Methodists or the United Methodists? Do you follow orthodox teachings? All of that will help answer the question

Similarly for you -- what are your beliefs? Are they orthodox or otherwise?

[Cronos]

See...even though we aren't Catholics, we believe in the Bible, and Christ's teachings

The problem is that statement is too simplistic. Even the Jehovah's witnesses, Mormons and even Muslims say they believe in the Bible (parts of it) and Christ's teachings...

[sinsofsolarempirefan]

They don’t recognise the Pope as the Supreme Pontiff...

[Westbrook]

Oh, please!

When people ask me which of all the denominations is the “right” one, I tell them “ALL OF THEM” inasmuch as they adhere to these fundamental Scriptural Truths.

* The inerrancy of the Scriptures - without this, we have nothing. That means that the Scriptural definition of SIN applies to EVERYBODY.

* The triune nature of God. If Jesus is not Divine, he has no power to save, to forgive, or to pay for your sins.

* Salvation by Grace (of God the Father), through Faith (of Jesus Christ the Son), revealed by the “New Man” and his Works (through God the Holy Spirit). (John 3:16, Eph 2:8-10, James 2:20))

* The Resurrection of the Dead: of the Faithful unto life eternal, of the unbeliever unto the Second Death and the Lake of Fire.

Now, READ EPHESIANS CHAPTER 4 and put away all your Denominational pride. It’s time for Christians to recognize eachother as such, and allow for differences.

* In the fundamentals, which are plain and easily understood, there must be Unity.

* In the peripherals, e.g. the mysteries, there must be Liberty.

* In all other things, there must be Forbearance.