Posted on 06/19/2009 10:03:34 PM PDT by dangus
You wrote:
“How could you be an expert witness when you already said this: “Maybe cause I didn’t like going to church when I was younger and disliked the nuns who hit us.” And how about this, “There were readings, but as a grade school kid, I was looking at my watch, or the ceiling or something else to kill the time.”
You’re reaching now, Vlad ! I know you find it hard to believe one of your perfect catholic church’s did not encourage Bible reading, but it’s true !
“So, you admit you paid more attention to the staring at the ceiling and your watch than what was being said, and you clearly didn’t like church or the nuns because they hit you. That doesn’t sound like the making of an expert witness on what was taught.”
My claim that they didn’t encourage Bible reading still stands.
Hey, I was there, you weren’t. You don’t have to believe it.
“The Bible isn’t school work”
It could have been, but it wasn’t at my school.
“Even Jesus Himself said the same prayer three times in the garden of Gethsemene.”
Three times is one thing, but we’re talking thousands of times, even millions.
“Do you think Jesus displeased God the Father in the garden of Gethsemene? I guess you’re not married or you never say, “I love you” to your wife because that just gets repetitous right?”
Jesus spoke to the father a lot, but didn’t repeat himself thousands of times.
“Were the Temple rites boring?”
Don’t know, I wasn’t there.
“I have never met a grade school kid who was so completely disinterested in his own life.”
You haven’t been paying attention, I was never disinterested in my life, just the mass.
“Also, you already mentioned how you did everything you could to not be interested or inquisitive.”
I never said that.
You may find the mass riveting, but I didn’t.
“Maybe you would have found Jesus boring too.”
I doubt it.
You wrote:
“You’re reaching now, Vlad ! I know you find it hard to believe one of your perfect catholic church’s did not encourage Bible reading, but it’s true !”
No. First of all, it wouldn’t be a “catholic church’s” but a “parish’s”. There are only about 22 Catholic Churches in the world. You’re not talking about any one of them. You’re talking about ONE parish in one of those churches. Again, are you sure you were Catholic? If the term “parish” is unfamiliar to you...
“My claim that they didn’t encourage Bible reading still stands.”
Stands on what? Again, you admitted you looked at the ceiling and your watch. Who knows what they encouraged you to do but you were too busy NOT PAYING ATTENTION to notice.
“Hey, I was there, you weren’t. You don’t have to believe it.”
You WERE NO THERE in spirit. You already admitted to staring at the ceiling and your watch. Again, how do you even know what was taught when you already admitted you didn’t pay attention? Again, it reminds me of this:
“You see,” she said, “I was born Catholic. I attended Mass every week, received the Sacraments and graduated from a Catholic school. Not once did I ever hear the gospel proclaimed. Not once! It was after the birth of my first child that a good friend of mine shared the gospel with me and I accepted Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior and became a Christian. Now I belong to a Bible-believing church and I’m sharing the gospel with whomever will listen.” http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/01/how-do-catholics-hear-gospel-gary.html
“It could have been, but it wasn’t at my school.”
Maybe not, but you had no curiosity in any case. Ceiling. Watch.
“Three times is one thing, but we’re talking thousands of times, even millions.”
So? Jews say the same Psalms every day. The saints and angels in heaven repeat the same prayers FOR EVER. “Without stopping day or night they were saying, “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, who is, and who is coming.”” (Rev. 4:8) I guess you better tell God to put a stop to that stuff right away, huh?
“Jesus spoke to the father a lot, but didn’t repeat himself thousands of times.”
Yes, He did. Every day, Jesus prayed the prayers that all Jews at the time prayed. That means He repeated Himself thousands and thousands of times.
“Don’t know, I wasn’t there.”
You were in a temple of the Lord for Christians...but you were too busy looking at the ceiling and your watch.
“You haven’t been paying attention, I was never disinterested in my life, just the mass.”
Which - if you really went every week and occasionally for school - was a part of your life. Ceiling. Watch.
“I never said that.”
Ceiling. Watch.
“You may find the mass riveting, but I didn’t.”
Ceiling. Watch.
“I doubt it.”
Ceiling. Watch.
Oh yes, ceiling, watch.
I attend a real Christian church now !
goodbye !
You wrote:
“Oh yes, ceiling, watch.”
Your words and actions, not mine.
“I attend a real Christian church now !”
You attend a sect’s assembly, not a church. Your “church” probably didn’t even exist 100 years ago and it surely didn’t exist 500 years ago. It wasn’t founded by Christ or anyone sent by Him or His Church. It’s just a man-made sect.
I attend a Bible believing church, where the word of God is preached, not heresies, such as a sinless Mary who we are supposed to pray to, or the sacrifice of the mass, because Jesus death on the cross was sufficient enough.
Goodbye !
You wrote:
“I attend a Bible believing church,...”
You attend a sect’s assembly. Remember your sect was started less than 500 years ago. It is a sect, not a church.
“...where the word of God is preached,...”
Where the pastor’s current opinions are preached. They might change... tomorrow in fact. They are just his opinions and some of them didn’t even exist before 1500.
“...not heresies, such as a sinless Mary who we are supposed to pray to, or the sacrifice of the mass, because Jesus death on the cross was sufficient enough.”
What is preached there is obviously ignorance. Mary’s sinlessness is not a heresy nor could you ever have the authority to conclude it is such as long as you are just a sectarian anyway. Also, Christ’s death on the cross was sufficient and THAT IS the sacrifice of the Mass. Again, are you sure you were really Catholic? Oh, that’s right. Ceiling. Watch.
What the ceiling couldn’t tell you: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10006a.htm
What your watch never knew: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0109sbs.asp
What you couldn’t learn when ignoring your pastor:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Sacrifice_of_the_Mass.asp
Ceiling. Watch.
You wrote:
“You attend a sect’s assembly. Remember your sect was started less than 500 years ago. It is a sect, not a church.”
Five hundred years ago the reformation exposed the heresies of Rome and it’s system.
“What is preached there is obviously ignorance. Mary’s sinlessness is not a heresy nor could you ever have the authority to conclude it is such as long as you are just a sectarian anyway.”
You’re wrong. You and your church have no authority to claim and teach that Mary was sinless. That is attempting to add to scripture - find out what happens to people who do that in the Book of Revelation.
There is nothing to suggest anywhere in the Bible that Mary was sinless.
Have you ever heard of any of the popes refer to Mary as the Queen of heaven ?
You wrote:
“Five hundred years ago the reformation exposed the heresies of Rome and it’s system.”
No. Less than 500 years ago the Protestant Revolutionaries gave into their lusts and attacked the only faith any orthodox Christian had ever known.
“You’re wrong. You and your church have no authority to claim and teach that Mary was sinless.”
Sure the Church has such authority. Christ gave the Church authority. Christ sent the Holy Spirit to guide the Church. He never sent the Holy Spirit to guide any sect.
“That is attempting to add to scripture - find out what happens to people who do that in the Book of Revelation.”
It adds nothing to scripture. Sola scriptura, however, cleary does add to scriptura for, as everyone knows, no where is sola scriptura taught in scripture. Also, to be precise, the admonition in Revelation was about adding to Revelation specifically.
“There is nothing to suggest anywhere in the Bible that Mary was sinless.’
There doesn’t have to be. No where in scripture is it taught that all things must be in scripture. Protestants themselves follow this principle by not only following doctrines not in scripture (such as sola scriptura) but adding them to the body of Christian doctrine almost 1500 years after the fact.
“Have you ever heard of any of the popes refer to Mary as the Queen of heaven ?”
Yes. Have you ever heard of Christ being called the King? What do you call the mother of a king? A queen, obviously.
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9812fea2.asp
Ceiling. Watch.
http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/mother.htm
Ceiling. Watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WwjFXw2yE0&feature=related
Ceiling. Watch.
It seems plausible that if a doctrine is important to believe, it would surface SOMEWHERE in scripture.
And not be CONTRADICTED repeatedly in scripture...
It is also worth repeating Jesus’s direct comment, when someone tried to focus attention on Mary:
27 As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”
28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”
You wrote:
“It seems plausible that if a doctrine is important to believe, it would surface SOMEWHERE in scripture.”
Okay, so where is sola scriptura taught in scripture? It isn’t. See how that works?
“And not be CONTRADICTED repeatedly in scripture...”
Mary’s sinlessness is not contradicted ANYWHERE by scripture.
The verses you cited have nothing to do with it.
You wrote:
Sure the Church has such authority. Christ gave the Church authority. Christ sent the Holy Spirit to guide the Church. He never sent the Holy Spirit to guide any sect.
The Holy Spirit is in all believers, he is our teacher, not the pope.
“It adds nothing to scripture. Sola scriptura, however, cleary does add to scriptura for, as everyone knows, no where is sola scriptura taught in scripture.”
Galatians 1
1 Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— 2 and all the brothers with me,
To the churches in Galatia:
3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
No Other Gospel
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
“There doesn’t have to be. No where in scripture is it taught that all things must be in scripture.”
You’re going to trust your salvation to tradition, written by sinners ? we’re talking eternity Vlad !!!
“Yes. Have you ever heard of Christ being called the King? What do you call the mother of a king? A queen, obviously.”
Find out what God says about the Queen of Heaven and worship of false Gods that your church has created of Mary.
12 “ ‘Go now to the place in Shiloh where I first made a dwelling for my Name, and see what I did to it because of the wickedness of my people Israel. 13 While you were doing all these things, declares the LORD, I spoke to you again and again, but you did not listen; I called you, but you did not answer. 14 Therefore, what I did to Shiloh I will now do to the house that bears my Name, the temple you trust in, the place I gave to you and your fathers. 15 I will thrust you from my presence, just as I did all your brothers, the people of Ephraim.’
16 “So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you. 17 Do you not see what they are doing in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18 The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes of bread for the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to provoke me to anger. 19 But am I the one they are provoking? declares the LORD. Are they not rather harming themselves, to their own shame?
20 “ ‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: My anger and my wrath will be poured out on this place, on man and beast, on the trees of the field and on the fruit of the ground, and it will burn and not be quenched.
Jeremiah 44
Disaster Because of Idolatry
1 This word came to Jeremiah concerning all the Jews living in Lower Egypt—in Migdol, Tahpanhes and Memphis [a] —and in Upper Egypt [b] : 2 “This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: You saw the great disaster I brought on Jerusalem and on all the towns of Judah. Today they lie deserted and in ruins 3 because of the evil they have done. They provoked me to anger by burning incense and by worshiping other gods that neither they nor you nor your fathers ever knew. 4 Again and again I sent my servants the prophets, who said, ‘Do not do this detestable thing that I hate!’ 5 But they did not listen or pay attention; they did not turn from their wickedness or stop burning incense to other gods. 6 Therefore, my fierce anger was poured out; it raged against the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem and made them the desolate ruins they are today.
11 “Therefore, this is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: I am determined to bring disaster on you and to destroy all Judah. 12 I will take away the remnant of Judah who were determined to go to Egypt to settle there. They will all perish in Egypt; they will fall by the sword or die from famine. From the least to the greatest, they will die by sword or famine. They will become an object of cursing and horror, of condemnation and reproach. 13 I will punish those who live in Egypt with the sword, famine and plague, as I punished Jerusalem. 14 None of the remnant of Judah who have gone to live in Egypt will escape or survive to return to the land of Judah, to which they long to return and live; none will return except a few fugitives.”
15 Then all the men who knew that their wives were burning incense to other gods, along with all the women who were present—a large assembly—and all the people living in Lower and Upper Egypt, [c] said to Jeremiah, 16 “We will not listen to the message you have spoken to us in the name of the LORD! 17 We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our fathers, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and were well off and suffered no harm. 18 But ever since we stopped burning incense to the Queen of Heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have had nothing and have been perishing by sword and famine.”
19 The women added, “When we burned incense to the Queen of Heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did not our husbands know that we were making cakes like her image and pouring out drink offerings to her?”
Indeed, if the traditions of man equal scripture, then why bother having scripture? How does one discern between traditions that are doctrine, and traditions that are merely opinion?
Oh wait - we'll trust the Pope...even 'tho many Popes have led lives that would qualify them as good politicians.
And what does one do when the traditions of man CONTRADICT scripture? For the entire thrust of scripture is that ALL have sinned, and ALL need a Savior.
As Paul rebuked Peter: “14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
15 “We who are Jews by birth and not ‘Gentile sinners’ 16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. 19 For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”
If Mary could be without sin, and not need a Savior, then truly Christ died for nothing! If God could skip the sentence of Adam for her, and she could do right things and be justified before God, then Jesus died for no reason.
Look at Romans 3: 9 What shall we conclude then? Are we [Jews] any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” 13 “Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.” “The poison of vipers is on their lips.” 14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.” 15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 ruin and misery mark their ways, 17 and the way of peace they do not know.” 18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29 Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.
I fail to see how it is possible to read that passage as meaning most have sinned, but Mary has not.
I’ve read that when Paul quotes the Old Testament as saying “There is no one righteous, not even one;”, he used the Greek translation, which added the words ‘not even one’ to the translation from the Hebrew. That additional emphasis would seem to rule out interpreting this passage as ‘most have sinned, but Mary has not’.
Indeed, I cannot think of a single passage anywhere that indicates anyone was sinless, except Jesus.
Mary herself knew she needed saving, for in Luke we read, “46 And Mary said: “My soul glorifies the Lord 47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior...”
Mary made no claim of being sinless, nor did anyone on her behalf. And when a woman tried to pay attention to Mary, Jesus himself redirected her (“Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”). What use is scripture, if you value the traditions of man above them? Why have a canon, if you ignore the plain teaching found therein?
My fiend said the masses were in Latin and of course he couldn't understand it.
If it wasn't that I totally trust the word of my friend, I too, found it difficult to believe but then Veeram claims the same thing.
Well what a fantastic concession you've made!
If the post to which I replied was accurate, your friend is an incredible idiot of science fiction proportions.
P.S.: Given five minutes, could your friend find his own tongue?
Anybody who grew up Catholic and can make that claim is either lying, mentally disabled, or a fictional character.
But they did nothing to assail the Truth of the Catholic Church, nor could they.
So too do about a billion Catholics.
There is nothing anywhere in the Bible to suggest that we must rely solely on the Bible.
Sola Scriptura is a non-Scriptural, false tradition of men.
There is no contradiction between the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the One Sacrifice by Christ on Calvary.
The only inconsistency is between Scripture and flagrant and grotesque distortions of Catholic teaching.
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