Posted on 06/13/2009 5:00:57 PM PDT by bdeaner
Many Catholics and non-Catholics alike think that the Roman Catholic Church invented the doctrine of transubstantiation. Transubstantiation means that the bread and wine presented on the altar at the Mass become the the Body and Blood of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit at the consecration. The consecration is the time when the priest calls upon the Holy Spirit to change the bread and wine into Christ's Body and Blood. However, the Body and Blood retain the appearance of bread and wine. The Roman Catholic Church, that is, the Latin Rite Catholic Church, and other Catholic Churches in communion with Rome believe that the Eucharist is the Real Presence of Jesus Christ, body, blood, soul and divinity. The Orthodox Churches and most other Churches of the East do so as well. Anglican [Episcopalian] and other Protestant denominations have interpreted Christ's presence at the celebration of the Lord's Supper or Eucharist to be either only spiritual, or symbolic, or non-existent.
Thus, I decided to research what the Early Christians believed on this issue. I searched the indices for "Eucharist" in many volume sets on Early Christian writings, and I was astonished at my discovery. The Early Christians actually took the Real Presence for granted. It doesn't even seem as if there was much debate. I could not find anyone who denied the Real Presence of Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament before the year 500 A.D. Following are the results of my search. Some Christians, e.g. St. Augustine, had very much to say about the Real Presence of Our Lord, so I did not include everything. Also, I want you to know that I did not include other Christians who believed in the Real Presence in this article because they later fell away from the Church for different reasons. Therefore, even though these Christians defended the Real Presence, e.g. Origen, Tertullian, Theodore of Mopsuetta, etc., I did not include their statements.
I pray that this research article will inspire lukewarm Catholics to become excited about their Faith which has faithfully been passed on for over 2000 years. I pray that the Holy Spirit will grant you Faith to believe in Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament and to receive Him at Mass and visit Him in the tabernacle. He is patiently waiting for you because he loves you and wants you to come home.
Also, I pray that this research article will motivate non-Catholics to ask questions about the Blessed Sacrament to learn more. Our Lord is still with us in the flesh, and He is awesome! I pray that someday you will be able to experience the joy of receiving Him in the Mass and of praying at his feet.
THE BIBLE
"The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread."
-1 Cor. 10:16-17
"For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, 'This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.' In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.' For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord."
-1 Cor. 11:23-27
THE DIDACHE
The Didache or "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles" is a manuscript which was used by 2nd century bishops and priests for the instruction of catechumens. Many early Christian writers have referenced it making this document relatively easy to date.
"Let no one eat and drink of your Eucharist but those baptized in the name of the Lord; to this, too the saying of the Lord is applicable: 'Do not give to dogs what is sacred'".
-Ch. 9:5
"On the Lord's own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks; but first confess your sins, so that your sacrifice may be pure. However, no one quarreling with his brother may join your meeting until they are reconciled; your sacrifice must not be defiled. For here we have the saying of the Lord: 'In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice; for I am a mighty King, says the Lord; and my name spreads terror among the nations.'"
-Ch 14
ST. CLEMENT OF ROME
St. Clement was the third successor of Peter as Bishop of Rome; otherwise known as the third Pope.
"Since then these things are manifest to us, and we have looked into the depths of the divine knowledge, we ought to do in order all things which the Master commanded us to perform at appointed times. He commanded us to celebrate sacrifices and services, and that it should not be thoughtlessly or disorderly, but at fixed times and hours. He has Himself fixed by His supreme will the places and persons whom He desires for these celebrations, in order that all things may be done piously according to His good pleasure, and be acceptable to His will. So then those who offer their oblations at the appointed seasons are acceptable and blessed, but they follow the laws of the Master and do not sin. For to the high priest his proper ministrations are allotted, and to the priests the proper place has been appointed, and on Levites their proper services have been imposed. The layman is bound by the ordinances for the laity."
Source: St. Clement, bishop of Rome, 80 A.D., to the Corinthians
"Our sin will not be small if we eject from the episcopate those who blamelessly and holily have offered its Sacrifices."
Source: Letter to the Corinthians, [44,4]
ST. IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH
St. Ignatius became the third bishop of Antioch, succeeding St. Evodius, who was the immediate successor of St. Peter. He heard St. John preach when he was a boy and knew St. Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna. Seven of his letters written to various Christian communities have been preserved. Eventually, he received the martyr's crown as he was thrown to wild beasts in the arena.
"Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead."
"Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D.
"Come together in common, one and all without exception in charity, in one faith and in one Jesus Christ, who is of the race of David according to the flesh, the son of man, and the Son of God, so that with undivided mind you may obey the bishop and the priests, and break one Bread which is the medicine of immortality and the antidote against death, enabling us to live forever in Jesus Christ."
-"Letter to the Ephesians", paragraph 20, c. 80-110 A.D.
"I have no taste for the food that perishes nor for the pleasures of this life. I want the Bread of God which is the Flesh of Christ, who was the seed of David; and for drink I desire His Blood which is love that cannot be destroyed."
-"Letter to the Romans", paragraph 7, circa 80-110 A.D.
"Take care, then who belong to God and to Jesus Christ - they are with the bishop. And those who repent and come to the unity of the Church - they too shall be of God, and will be living according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren: if anyone follow a schismatic, he will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If any man walk about with strange doctrine, he cannot lie down with the passion. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: for there is one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of His Blood; one altar, as there is one bishop with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons."
-Epistle to the Philadelphians, 3:2-4:1, 110 A.D.
ST. JUSTIN MARTYR
St. Justin Martyr was born a pagan but converted to Christianity after studying philosophy. He was a prolific writer and many Church scholars consider him the greatest apologist or defender of the faith from the 2nd century. He was beheaded with six of his companions some time between 163 and 167 A.D.
"This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God's Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus."
"First Apology", Ch. 66, inter A.D. 148-155.
"God has therefore announced in advance that all the sacrifices offered in His name, which Jesus Christ offered, that is, in the Eucharist of the Bread and of the Chalice, which are offered by us Christians in every part of the world, are pleasing to Him."
"Dialogue with Trypho", Ch. 117, circa 130-160 A.D.
Moreover, as I said before, concerning the sacrifices which you at that time offered, God speaks through Malachias, one of the twelve, as follows: 'I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord; and I will not accept your sacrifices from your hands; for from the rising of the sun until its setting, my name has been glorified among the gentiles; and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a clean offering: for great is my name among the gentiles, says the Lord; but you profane it.' It is of the sacrifices offered to Him in every place by us, the gentiles, that is, of the Bread of the Eucharist and likewise of the cup of the Eucharist, that He speaks at that time; and He says that we glorify His name, while you profane it."
-"Dialogue with Trypho", [41: 8-10]
ST. IRENAEUS OF LYONS
St. Irenaeus succeeded St. Pothinus to become the second bishop of Lyons in 177 A.D. Earlier in his life he studied under St. Polycarp. Considered, one of the greatest theologians of the 2nd century, St. Irenaeus is best known for refuting the Gnostic heresies.
[Christ] has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own Blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own Body, from which he gives increase to our bodies."
Source: St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies, 180 A.D.:
"So then, if the mixed cup and the manufactured bread receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, that is to say, the Blood and Body of Christ, which fortify and build up the substance of our flesh, how can these people claim that the flesh is incapable of receiving God's gift of eternal life, when it is nourished by Christ's Blood and Body and is His member? As the blessed apostle says in his letter to the Ephesians, 'For we are members of His Body, of His flesh and of His bones' (Eph. 5:30). He is not talking about some kind of 'spiritual' and 'invisible' man, 'for a spirit does not have flesh an bones' (Lk. 24:39). No, he is talking of the organism possessed by a real human being, composed of flesh and nerves and bones. It is this which is nourished by the cup which is His Blood, and is fortified by the bread which is His Body. The stem of the vine takes root in the earth and eventually bears fruit, and 'the grain of wheat falls into the earth' (Jn. 12:24), dissolves, rises again, multiplied by the all-containing Spirit of God, and finally after skilled processing, is put to human use. These two then receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, which is the Body and Blood of Christ."
-"Five Books on the Unmasking and Refutation of the Falsely Named Gnosis". Book 5:2, 2-3, circa 180 A.D.
"For just as the bread which comes from the earth, having received the invocation of God, is no longer ordinary bread, but the Eucharist, consisting of two realities, earthly and heavenly, so our bodies, having received the Eucharist, are no longer corruptible, because they have the hope of the resurrection."
-"Five Books on the Unmasking and Refutation of the Falsely named Gnosis". Book 4:18 4-5, circa 180 A.D.
ST. CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA
St. Clement of Alexandria studied under Pantaenus. He later succeeded him as the director of the school of catechumens in Alexandria, Egypt around the year 200 A.D., "The Blood of the Lord, indeed, is twofold. There is His corporeal Blood, by which we are redeemed from corruption; and His spiritual Blood, that with which we are anointed. That is to say, to drink the Blood of Jesus is to share in His immortality. The strength of the Word is the Spirit just as the blood is the strength of the body. Similarly, as wine is blended with water, so is the Spirit with man. The one, the Watered Wine, nourishes in faith, while the other, the Spirit, leads us on to immortality. The union of both, however, - of the drink and of the Word, - is called the Eucharist, a praiseworthy and excellent gift. Those who partake of it in faith are sanctified in body and in soul. By the will of the Father, the divine mixture, man, is mystically united to the Spirit and to the Word.",
-"The Instructor of the Children". [2,2,19,4] ante 202 A.D.,
"The Word is everything to a child: both Father and Mother, both Instructor and Nurse. 'Eat My Flesh,' He says, 'and drink My Blood.' The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients. He delivers over His Flesh, and pours out His Blood; and nothing is lacking for the growth of His children. O incredible mystery!",
-"The Instructor of the Children" [1,6,41,3] ante 202 A.D.. ,
ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE
St. Cyprian of Carthage converted from paganism to Christianity around the year 246 A.D. Soon afterwards, he aspired to the priesthood and eventually was ordained Bishop of Carthage. He was beheaded for his Faith in the year 258 A.D., thus he was the first African bishop to have been martyred.,
"So too the the sacred meaning of the Pasch lies essentially in the fact, laid down in Exodus, that the lamb - slain as a type of Christ - should be eaten in one single home. God says the words: 'In one house shall it be eaten, ye shall not cast its flesh outside.' The flesh of Christ and the Lord's sacred body cannot be cast outside, nor have believers any other home but the one Church.",
-"The Unity of the Catholic Church". Ch.8, circa 249-258 A.D.,
Description of an event in which an infant was taken to a pagan sacrifice and then the mother recovered it and brought it to Mass.
"Listen to what happened in my presence, before my very eyes. There was a baby girl, whose parents had fled and had, in their fear, rather improvidently lift it in the charge of its nurse. The nurse took the helpless child to the magistrates. There, before the idol where the crowds were flocking, as it was too young to eat the flesh, they gave it some bread dipped in what was left of the wine offered by those who had already doomed themselves. Later, the mother recovered her child. But the girl could not reveal or tell the wicked thing that had been done, any more than she had been able to understand or ward it off before. Thus, when the mother brought her in with her while we were offering the Sacrifice, it was through ignorance that this mischance occurred. But the infant, in the midst of the faithful, resenting the prayer and the offering we were making, began to cry convulsively, struggling and tossing in a veritable brain-storm, and for all its tender age and simplicity of soul, was confessing, as if under torture, in every way it could, its consciousness of the misdeed. Moreover, when the sacred rites were completed and the deacon began ministering to those present, when its turn came to receive, it turned its little head away as if sensing the divine presence, it closed its mouth, held its lips tight, and refused to drink from the chalice. The deacon persisted and, in spite of its opposition, poured in some of the consecrated chalice. There followed choking and vomiting. The Eucharist could not remain in a body or mouth that was defiled; the drink which had been sanctified by Our Lord's blood returned from the polluted stomach. So great is the power of the Lord, and so great His majesty!",
-"The Lapsed" Ch. 25, circa 249-258 A.D.,
"The priest who imitates that which Christ did, truly takes the place of Christ, and offers there in the Church a true and perfect sacrifice to God the Father.",
Source: St. Cyprian wrote to the Ephesians circa 258 A.D:,
"There was a woman too who with impure hands tried to open the locket in which she was keeping Our Lord's holy body, but fire flared up from it and she was too terrified to touch it. And a man who, in spite of his sin, also presumed secretly to join the rest in receiving sacrifice offered by the bishop, was unable to eat or even handle Our Lord's sacred body; when he opened his hands, he found he was holding nothing but ashes. By this one example it was made manifest that Our Lord removes Himself from one who denies Him, and that what is received brings no blessing to the unworthy, since the Holy One has fled and the saving grace is turned to ashes.",
-"The Lapsed" Ch. 26, circa 249-258 A.D.,
As the prayer proceeds, we ask and say: 'Give us this day our daily bread.' This can be understood both spiritually and simply, because either understanding is of profit in divine usefulness for salvation. For Christ is the bread of life and the bread here is of all, but is ours. And as we say 'Our Father,' because He is the Father of those who understand and believe, so too we say 'our Bread,' because Christ is the bread of those of us who attain to His body. Moreover, we ask that this bread be given daily, lest we, who are in Christ and receive the Eucharist daily as food of salvation, with the intervention of some more grievous sin, while we are shut off and as non-communicants are kept from the heavenly bread, be separated from the body of Christ as He Himself declares, saying: 'I am the bread of life which came down from heaven. If any man eat of my bread he shall live forever. Moreover, the bread that I shall give is my flesh for the life of the world.' Since then He says that, if anyone eats of His bread, he lives forever, as it is manifest that they live who attain to His body and receive the Eucharist by right of communion, so on the other hand we must fear and pray lest anyone, while he is cut off and separated from the body of Christ, remain apart from salvation, as He Himself threatens, saying: 'Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you shall not have life in you.' And so we petition that our bread, that is Christ, be given us daily, so that we, who abide and live in Christ, may not withdraw from His sanctification and body.",
Source: St. Cyprian of Carthage, the Lord's Prayer, 252 A.D., chapter 18:,
APHRAATES THE PERSIAN SAGE
Not much biographical information has been left about Aphraates. It is known that he was one of the Fathers of the Syrian Church. It is speculated that he was made bishop late in his life.,
He is thought to have been born ca. 280 A.D. and to have died ca. 345 A.D.,
"But the Lord was not yet arrested. After having spoken thus, the Lord rose up from the place where He had made the Passover and had given His Body as food and His Blood as drink, and He went with His disciples to the place where He was to be arrested. But he ate of His own Body and drank of His own Blood, while He was pondering on the dead. With His own hands the Lord presented His own Body to be eaten, and before he was crucified He gave His blood as drink; and He was taken at night on the fourteenth, and was judged until the sixth hour; and at the sixth hour they condemned Him and raised Him on the cross.",
- "Treatises" [12,6] inter 336-345 A.D.,
SERAPION
"'Holy, holy, holy Lord Sabaoth, heaven and earth is full of Your glory.' Heaven is full, and full is the earth with your magnificent glory, Lord of Virtues. Full also is this Sacrifice, with your strength and your communion; for to You we offer this living Sacrifice, this unbloody oblation.,
To you we offer this bread, the likeness of the Body of the Only-begotten. This bread is the likeness of His holy Body because the Lord Jesus Christ, on the night on which He was betrayed, took bread and broke and gave to His disciples, saying, 'Take and eat, this is My Body, which is being broken for you, unto the remission of sins.' On this account too do we offer the Bread, to bring ourselves into the likeness of His death; and we pray: Reconcile us all, O God of truth, and be gracious to us. And just as this Bread was scattered over the mountains and when collected was made one, so too gather Your holy Church from every nation and every country and every city and village and house and make it one living Catholic Church.,
We offer also the cup, the likeness of His Blood, because the Lord Jesus Christ took the cup after He had eaten, and He said to His disciples, 'Take, drink, this is the new covenant, which is My Blood which is being poured out for you unto the remission of sins.' For this reason too we offer the chalice, to benefit ourselves by the likeness of His Blood. O God of truth, may Your Holy Logos come upon this Bread, that the Bread may become the Body of the Logos, and on this Cup, that the Cup may become the Blood of the Truth. And make all who communicate receive the remedy of life, to cure every illness and to strengthen every progress and virtue; not unto condemnation, O God of truth, nor unto disgrace and reproach!,
For we invoke You, the Increate, through Your Only-begotten in the Holy Spirit. Be merciful to this people, sent for the destruction of evil and for the security of Your Church. We beseech You also on behalf of all the departed, of whom also this is the commemoration: - after the mentioning of their names: - Sanctify these souls, for You know them all; sanctify all who have fallen asleep in the Lord and count them among the ranks of Your saints and give them a place and abode in your kingdom. Accept also the thanksgiving of Your people and bless those who offer the oblations and the Thanksgivings, and bestow health and integrity and festivity and every progress of soul and body on the whole of this Your people through your Only-begotten Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit, as it was and is and will be in generations of generations and unto the whole expanse of the ages of ages. Amen.",
-"The Sacramentary of Serapion, Prayer of the Eucharistic Sacrifice" [13],
ST. EPHRAIM
St. Ephraim was one of the great authors of the Syrian Church. Because of his beautiful writings, he is sometimes referred to as the 'lyre of the Holy Spirit'. He studied under James, Bishop of Nisbis. In 338 A.D. he aspired to the diaconate and remained a deacon for the remainder of his life.,
"Our Lord Jesus took in His hands what in the beginning was only bread; and He blessed it, and signed it, and made it holy in the name of the Father and in the name of the Spirit; and He broke it and in His gracious kindness He distributed it to all His disciples one by one. He called the bread His living Body, and did Himself fill it with Himself and the Spirit.,
And extending His hand, He gave them the Bread which His right hand had made holy: 'Take, all of you eat of this; which My word has made holy. Do not now regard as bread that which I have given you; but take, eat this Bread, and do not scatter the crumbs; for what I have called My Body, that it is indeed. One particle from its crumbs is able to sanctify thousands and thousands, and is sufficient to afford life to those who eat of it. Take, eat, entertaining no doubt of faith, because this is My Body, and whoever eats it in belief eats in it Fire and Spirit. But if any doubter eat of it, for him it will be only bread. And whoever eats in belief the Bread made holy in My name, if he be pure, he will be preserved in his purity; and if he be a sinner, he will be forgiven.' But if anyone despise it or reject it or treat it with ignominy, it may be taken as certainty that he treats with ignominy the Son, who called it and actually made it to be His Body.",
-"Homilies" 4,4 ca.. 350 A.D.,
"After the disciples had eaten the new and holy Bread, and when they understood by faith that they had eaten of Christ's body, Christ went on to explain and to give them the whole Sacrament. He took and mixed a cup of wine. The He blessed it, and signed it, and made it holy, declaring that it was His own Blood, which was about to be poured out….Christ commanded them to drink, and He explained to them that the cup which they were drinking was His own Blood: 'This is truly My Blood, which is shed for all of you. Take, all of you, drink of this, because it is a new covenant in My Blood, As you have seen Me do, do you also in My memory. Whenever you are gathered together in My name in Churches everywhere, do what I have done, in memory of Me. Eat My Body, and drink My Blood, a covenant new and old.",
-"Homilies" 4,6 ca. 350 A.D.,
"'And your floors shall be filled with wheat, and the presses shall overflow equally with wine and oil.' … This has been fulfilled mystically by Christ, who gave to the people whom He had redeemed, that is, to His Church, wheat and wine and oil in a mystic manner. For the wheat is the mystery of His sacred Body; and the wine His saving Blood; and again, the oil is the sweet unguent with which those who are baptized are signed, being clothed in the armaments of the Holy Spirit.",
-"On Joel 2:24", Commentaries on Sacred Scripture, Vol. 2 p. 252 of the Assemani edition.
ST. ATHANASIUS
St. Athanasius was born in Alexandria ca. 295 A.D. He was ordained a deacon in 319 A.D. He accompanied his bishop, Alexander, to the Council of Nicaea, where he served as his secretary. Eventually he succeeded Alexander as Bishop of Alexandria. He is most known for defending Nicene doctrine against Arian disputes.,
"'The great Athanasius in his sermon to the newly baptized says this:' You shall see the Levites bringing loaves and a cup of wine, and placing them on the table. So long as the prayers of supplication and entreaties have not been made, there is only bread and wine. But after the great and wonderful prayers have been completed, then the bread is become the Body, and the wine the Blood, of our Lord Jesus Christ. 'And again:' Let us approach the celebration of the mysteries. This bread and this wine, so long as the prayers and supplications have not taken place, remain simply what they are. But after the great prayers and holy supplications have been sent forth, the Word comes down into the bread and wine - and thus His Body is confected.",
-"Sermon to the Newly Baptized" ante 373 A.D.,
ST. CYRIL OF JERUSALEM
St. Cyril served as Bishop of Jerusalem in the years 348-378 A.D.,
"`I have received of the Lord that which I also delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which He was betrayed, took bread, etc. [1 Cor. 11:23]'. This teaching of the Blessed Paul is alone sufficient to give you a full assurance concerning those Divine Mysteries, which when ye are vouchsafed, ye are of (the same body) [Eph 3:6] and blood with Christ. For he has just distinctly said, (That our Lord Jesus Christ the same night in which He was betrayed, took bread, and when He had given thanks He brake it, and said, Take, eat, this is My Body: and having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, Take, drink, this is My Blood.) [1 Cor. 2:23-25] Since then He Himself has declared and said of the Bread, (This is My Body), who shall dare to doubt any longer? And since He has affirmed and said, (This is My Blood), who shall ever hesitate, saying, that it is not His blood?
-"Catechetical Lectures [22 (Mystagogic 4), 1]
"Therefore with fullest assurance let us partake as of the Body and Blood of Christ: for in the figure of Bread is given to thee His Body, and in the figure of Wine His Blood; that thou by partaking of the Body and Blood of Christ, mightest be made of the same body and the same blood with Him. For thus we come to bear Christ in us, because His Body and Blood are diffused through our members; thus it is that, according to the blessed Peter, (we become partaker of the divine nature.) [2 Peter 1:4]
-"Catechetical Lectures [22 (Mystagogic 4), 3]
"Contemplate therefore the Bread and Wine not as bare elements, for they are, according to the Lord's declaration, the Body and Blood of Christ; for though sense suggests this to thee, let faith stablish thee. Judge not the matter from taste, but from faith be fully assured without misgiving, that thou hast been vouchsafed the Body and Blood of Christ.
-"Catechetical Lectures [22 (Mystagogic 4), 6]"
"9. These things having learnt, and being fully persuaded that what seems bread is not bread, though bread by taste, but the Body of Christ; and that what seems wine is not wine, though the taste will have it so, but the Blood of Christ; and that of this David sung of old, saying, (And bread which strengtheneth man's heart, and oil to make his face to shine) [Ps. 104:15], `strengthen thine heart', partaking thereof as spiritual, and `make the face of thy soul to shine'. And so having it unveiled by a pure conscience, mayest thou behold as in a glass the glory of the Lord, and proceed from glory to glory [2 Cor. 3:18], in Christ Jesus our Lord:--To whom be honor, and might, and glory, for ever and ever. Amen."
Source: St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Mystagogic Catechesis 4,1, c. 350 A.D.:
"Then upon the completion of the spiritual Sacrifice, the bloodless worship, over the propitiatory victim we call upon God for the common peace of the Churches, for the welfare of the world, for kings, for soldiers and allies, for the sick, for the afflicted; and in summary, we all pray and offer this Sacrifice for all who are in need."
"Mystagogic Catechesis [23: 5-7]
"Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, Apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition; next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep; for we believe that it will be of very great benefit of the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn Sacrifice is laid out."
-Mystagogic Catechesis [23 (Mystagogic 5), 10]
"After this you hear the singing which invites you with a divine melody to the Communion of the Holy Mysteries, and which says, 'Taste and see that the Lord is good.' Do not trust to the judgement of the bodily palate - no, but to unwavering faith. For they who are urged to taste do not taste of bread and wine, but to the antitype, of the Body and Blood of Christ."
-"Mystagogic Catecheses 5 23, 20 ca. 350 A.D
"Keep these traditions inviolate, and preserve yourselves from offenses. Do not cut yourselves off from Communion, do not deprive yourselves, through the pollution of sins, of these Holy and Spiritual Mysteries."
-"Mystagogic Catechesis [23 (Mystagogic 5), 23]"
ST. HILARY OF POITERS
St. Hilary firmly defended the Nicene Creed against Arian false doctrines. He was ordained Bishop of Poiters in 350 A.D. His efforts led to the collapse of Arianism in the West. He was proclaimed a Doctor of the Church by Pius IX in 1851.
"When we speak of the reality of Christ's nature being in us, we would be speaking foolishly and impiously - had we not learned it from Him. For He Himself says: 'My Flesh is truly Food, and My Blood is truly Drink. He that eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood will remain in Me and I in him.' As to the reality of His Flesh and Blood, there is no room left for doubt, because now, both by the declaration of the Lord Himself and by our own faith, it is truly the Flesh and it is truly Blood. And These Elements bring it about, when taken and consumed, that we are in Christ and Christ is in us. Is this not true? Let those who deny that Jesus Christ is true God be free to find these things untrue. But He Himself is in us through the flesh and we are in Him, while that which we are with Him is in God."
-"The Trinity" [8,14] inter 356-359 A.D.
ST. BASIL THE GREAT
St. Basil is recognized as the founder of Eastern monasticism. He was ordained Bishop of Caesarea in 370 A.D. He defended the Catholic Church against two waves of Arian attacks. The first movement denied the divinity of Christ. The second denied the divinity of the Holy Spirit. He is considered one of the greatest saints of the Oriental Church.
"What is the mark of a Christian? That he be purified of all defilement of the flesh and of the spirit in the Blood of Christ, perfecting sanctification in the fear of God and the love of Christ, and that he have no blemish nor spot nor any such thing; that he be holy and blameless and so eat the Body of Christ and drink His Blood; for 'he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgement to himself.' What is the mark of those who eat the Bread and drink the Cup of Christ? That they keep in perpetual remembrance Him who died for us and rose again."
-"The Morals" Ch. 22
"He, therefore, who approaches the Body and Blood of Christ in commemoration of Him who died for us and rose again must be free not only from defilement of flesh and spirit, in order that he may not eat drink unto judgement, but he must actively manifest the remembrance of Him who died for us and rose again, by being dead to sin, to the world, and to himself, and alive unto God in Christ Jesus, our Lord."
-"Concerning Baptism" Book I, Ch. 3.
"To communicate each day and to partake of the holy Body and Blood of Christ is good and beneficial; for He says quite plainly: 'He that eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood has eternal life.' Who can doubt that to share continually in life is the same thing as having life abundantly? We ourselves communicate four times each week, on Sunday, Wednesday, Friday, and Saturday; and on other days if there is a commemoration of any saint."
-"Letter to a Patrician Lady Caesaria" [93] ca. 372 A.D.
ST. EPIPHANIUS OF SALAMIS
"We see that the Saviour took [something] in His hands, as it is in the Gospel, when He was reclining at the supper; and He took this, and giving thanks, He said: 'This is really Me.' And He gave to His disciples and said: 'This is really Me.' And we see that It is not equal nor similar, not to the incarnate image, not to the invisible divinity, not to the outline of His limbs. For It is round of shape, and devoid of feeling. As to Its power, He means to say even of Its grace, 'This is really Me.'; and none disbelieves His word. For anyone who does not believe the truth in what He says is deprived of grace and of a Savior."
-"The Man Well-Anchored" [57] 374 A.D.
ST. GREGORY OF NAZIANZ
St. Gregory was consecrated Bishop of Sasima in the year 371 A.D and was a friend of St. Basil for most of his life. BR> "Cease not to pray and plead for me when you draw down the Word by your word, when in an unbloody cutting you cut the Body and Blood of the Lord, using your voice for a sword."
-"Letter to Amphilochius, Bishop of Iconium" [171] ca. 383 A.D.
ST. GREGORY OF NYSSA
"Rightly then, do we believe that the bread consecrated by the word of God has been made over into the Body of the God the Word. For that Body was, as to its potency bread; but it has been consecrated by the lodging there of the Word, who pitched His tent in the flesh."
-"The Great Catechism [37: 9-13]"
"He offered Himself for us, Victim and Sacrifice, and Priest as well, and 'Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.' When did He do this? When He made His own Body food and His own Blood drink for His disciples; for this much is clear enough to anyone, that a sheep cannot be eaten by a man unless its being eaten be preceded by its being slaughtered. This giving of His own Body to His disciples for eating clearly indicates that the sacrifice of the Lamb has now been completed."
-"Orations and Sermons" [Jaeger: Vol 9, p. 287] ca. 383 A.D.
"The bread is at first common bread; but when the mystery sanctifies it, it is called and actually becomes the Body of Christ."
-"Orations and Sermons" [Jaeger Vol 9, pp. 225-226] ca. 383 A.D.
ST. JOHN CHRYSOSTOM
From 386-397 A.D. St. John Chrysostom served as a priest in the main church of Antioch. He soon became renown for his preaching and writing skills. In 397 A.D. he succeeded St. Gregory of Nazianz as Bishop of Constantinople.
"When the word says, 'This is My Body,' be convinced of it and believe it, and look at it with the eyes of the mind. For Christ did not give us something tangible, but even in His tangible things all is intellectual. So too with Baptism: the gift is bestowed through what is a tangible thing, water; but what is accomplished is intellectually perceived: the birth and the renewal. If you were incorporeal He would have given you those incorporeal gifts naked; but since the soul is intertwined with the body, He hands over to you in tangible things that which is perceived intellectually. How many now say, 'I wish I could see His shape, His appearance, His garments, His sandals.' Only look! You see Him! You touch Him! You eat Him!"
-"Homilies on the Gospel of Matthew" [82,4] 370 A.D.
"I wish to add something that is plainly awe-inspiring, but do not be astonished or upset. This Sacrifice, no matter who offers it, be it Peter or Paul, is always the same as that which Christ gave His disciples and which priests now offer: The offering of today is in no way inferior to that which Christ offered, because it is not men who sanctify the offering of today; it is the same Christ who sanctified His own. For just as the words which God spoke are the very same as those which the priest now speaks, so too the oblation is the very same."
Source: St. John Chrysostom, "Homilies on the Second Epistle to Timothy," 2,4, c. 397 A.D.
"It is not the power of man which makes what is put before us the Body and Blood of Christ, but the power of Christ Himself who was crucified for us. The priest standing there in the place of Christ says these words but their power and grace are from God. 'This is My Body,' he says, and these words transform what lies before him."
Source: St. John Chrysostom, "Homilies on the Treachery of Judas" 1,6; d. 407 A.D.:
"'The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not communion of the Blood of Christ?' Very trustworthily and awesomely does he say it. For what he is saying is this: 'What is in the cup is that which flowed from His side, and we partake of it.' He called it a cup of blessing because when we hold it in our hands that is how we praise Him in song, wondering and astonished at His indescribable Gift, blessing Him because of His having poured out this very Gift so that we might not remain in error, and not only for His having poured out It out, but also for His sharing It with all of us."
-"Homilies on the First Letter to the Corinthians" [24,1] ca. 392 A.D.
ST. AMBROSE OF MILAN
"You perhaps say: 'My bread is usual.' But the bread is bread before the words of the sacraments; when consecration has been added, from bread it becomes the flesh of Christ. So let us confirm this, how it is possible that what is bread is the body of Christ. By what words, then, is the consecration and by whose expressions? By those of the Lord Jesus. For all the rest that are said in the preceding are said by the priest: praise to God, prayer is offered, there is a petition for the people, for kings, for the rest. When it comes to performing a venerable sacrament, then the priest uses not his own expressions, but he uses the expressions of Christ. Thus the expression of Christ performs this sacrament."
-"The Sacraments" Book 4, Ch.4:14.
"Let us be assured that this is not what nature formed, but what the blessing consecrated, and that greater efficacy resides in the blessing than in nature, for by the blessing nature is changed… . Surely the word of Christ, which could make out of nothing that which did not exist, can change things already in existence into what they were not. For it is no less extraordinary to give things new natures than to change their natures… . Christ is in that Sacrament, because it is the Body of Christ; yet, it is not on that account corporeal food, but spiritual. Whence also His Apostle says of the type: `For our fathers ate spiritual food and drink spiritual drink.' [1 Cor. 10:2-4] For the body of God is a spiritual body."
-"On the Mysteries" 9, 50-52, 58; 391 A.D.:
"His poverty enriches, the fringe of His garment heals, His hunger satisfies, His death gives life, His burial gives resurrection. Therefore, He is a rich treasure, for His bread is rich. And 'rich' is apt for one who has eaten this bread will be unable to feel hunger. He gave it to the Apostles to distribute to a believing people, and today He gives it to us, for He, as a priest, daily consecrates it with His own words. Therefore, this bread has become the food of the saints."
-"The Patriarchs" Ch. 9:38
"Thus, every soul which receives the bread which comes down from heaven is a house of bread, the bread of Christ, being nourished and having its heart strengthened by the support of the heavenly bread which dwells within it."
-"Letter to Horontianus" circa 387 A.D.
EGERIA
"Following the dismissal from the Martyrium, everyone proceeds behind the Cross, where, after a hymn is sung and a prayer is said, the bishop offers the sacrifice and everyone receives Communion. Except on this one day, throughout the year the sacrifice is never offered behind the Cross save on this day alone."
-"Diary of a Pilgrimage" Ch. 35.
Describes a Mass held in front of Mt. Sinai.
"All of the proper passage from the Book of Moses was read, the sacrifice was offered in the prescribed manner, and we received Communion."
-"Diary of a Pilgrimage" Ch. 3.
AURELIUS PRUDENTIUS CLEMENS
"Such is the hidden retreat where Hippolytus' body is buried. Next to an altar nearby, built for the worship of God. Table from which the sacrament all holy is given, close to the martyr it stands, set as a faithful guard."
-"Hymns for Every Day" Hymn 170.
ST. JEROME
"After the type had been fulfilled by the Passover celebration and He had eaten the flesh of the lamb with His Apostles, He takes bread which strengthens the heart of man, and goes on to the true Sacrament of the Passover, so that just as Melchisedech, the priest of the Most High God, in prefiguring Him, made bread and wine an offering, He too makes Himself manifest in the reality of His own Body and Blood."
-"Commentaries on the Gospel of Matthew" [4,26,26] 398 A.D.
APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTIONS
"A bishop gives the blessing, he does not receive it. He imposes hands, he ordains, he offers the Sacrifice"
"Apostolic Constitutions [8, 28, 2:9]"
ST. CYRIL OF ALEXANDRIA
"Christ said indicating (the bread and wine): 'This is My Body,' and "This is My Blood," in order that you might not judge what you see to be a mere figure. The offerings, by the hidden power of God Almighty, are changed into Christ's Body and Blood, and by receiving these we come to share in the life-giving and sanctifying efficacy of Christ."
Source: St. Cyril of Alexandria, Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew 26,27, 428 A.D.:
"We have been instructed in these matters and filled with an unshakable faith, that that which seems to be bread, is not bread, though it tastes like it, but the Body of Christ, and that which seems to be wine, is not wine, though it too tastes as such, but the Blood of Christ … draw inner strength by receiving this bread as spiritual food and your soul will rejoice."
Source: St. Cyril of Alexandria, "Catecheses," 22, 9; "Myst." 4; d. 444 A.D.:
ST. AUGUSTINE
"You ought to know what you have received, what you are going to receive, and what you ought to receive daily. That Bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the Body of Christ. The chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the Blood of Christ."
-"Sermons", [227, 21]
"He who made you men, for your sakes was Himself made man; to ensure your adoption as many sons into an everlasting inheritance, the blood of the Only-Begotten has been shed for you. If in your own reckoning you have held yourselves cheap because of your earthly frailty, now assess yourselves by the price paid for you; meditate, as you should, upon what you eat, what you drink, to what you answer 'Amen'".
-"Second Discourse on Psalm 32". Ch. 4. circa
"For the whole Church observes this practice which was handed down by the Fathers: that it prayers for those who have died in the communion of the Body and Blood of Christ, when they are commemorated in their own place in the sacrifice itself; and the sacrifice is offered also in memory of them on their behalf.
Source: St. Augustine, Sermons 172,2, circa 400 A.D.
"The fact that our fathers of old offered sacrifices with beasts for victims, which the present-day people of God read about but do not do, is to be understood in no way but this: that those things signified the things that we do in order to draw near to God and to recommend to our neighbor the same purpose. A visible sacrifice, therefore, is the sacrament, that is to say, the sacred sign, of an invisible sacrifice… . Christ is both the Priest, offering Himself, and Himself the Victim. He willed that the sacramental sign of this should be the daily sacrifice of the Church, who, since the Church is His body and He the Head, learns to offer herself through Him.
Source: St. Augustine, The City of God, 10, 5; 10,20, c. 426:
MARCARIUS THE MAGNESIAN
"[Christ] took the bread and the cup, each in a similar fashion, and said: 'This is My Body and this is My Blood.' Not a figure of His body nor a figure of His blood, as some persons of petrified mind are wont to rhapsodize, but in truth the Body and the Blood of Christ, seeing that His body is from the earth, and the bread and wine are likewise from the earth."
-"Apocriticus" [3,23] ca. 400 A.D.
ST. LEO I
"When the Lord says: 'Unless you shall have eaten the flesh of the Son of Man and shall have drunk His blood, you shall not have life in you,' you ought to so communicate at the Sacred Table that you have no doubt whatever of the truth of the Body and the Blood of Christ. For that which is taken in the mouth is what is believed in faith; and in do those respond, 'Amen,' who argue against that which is received."
-"Sermons" [91,3] ante 461 A.D.
ST. CAESAR OF ARLES
"As often as some infirmity overtakes a man, let him who is ill receive the Body and Blood of Christ."
-"Sermons [13 (265), 3]
ST. FULGENE OF RUSPE
"Hold most firmly and never doubt in the least that the Only-begotten God the Word Himself become flesh offered Himself in an odor of sweetness as a Sacrifice and Victim to God on our behalf; to whom, with the Father, and the Holy Spirit, in the time of the Old Testament animals were sacrificed by the patriarchs and prophets and priests; and to whom now, I mean in the time of the New Testament, with the Father and the Holy Spirit, with whom He has one Godhead, the Holy Catholic Church does not cease in faith and love to offer throughout all the lands of the world a sacrifice of Bread and Wine … In those former sacrifices what would be given us in the future was signified figuratively; but in this sacrifice which has now been given us, it is shown plainly. In those former sacrifices it was fore-announced that the Son of God would be killed for the impious; but in the present it is announced that He has been killed for the impious."
-"The Rule of Faith [62]"
CONCLUSION
"I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths."
(2 Tim 4:1-4)
Amen.
God bless you too!
This catholic stuff is just so bogus, I’m sorry, but why the need for a hokey religion, stick with the facts and keep all the mysticism out of it, no wonder folks are leaving in droves, the Main things are the Plain things. Christ died on the cross for our sins, you accept it or reject it. Why do you chase after dragons?
“When the priest announces the tremendous words of consecration, he reaches up into the heavens, brings Christ down from His throne, and places Him upon our altar to be offered up again as the Victim for the sins of man...The priest brings Christ down from heaven, and renders Him present on our altar as the eternal Victim for the sins of man, not once but a thousand times!
Hmmm...
Hebrews 10: "12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
Either Scripture is wrong, or John O'Brien.
A screwdriver can become a hammer, in every sense of each word. It’s literally transformed into a hammer, if it’s *used* as a hammer, thus it literally becomes a hammer, even though it still *appears to be* a screwdriver.
This is the fundamental concept behind “transubstantiation”. It’s not that, through some kind of magical means, the bread takes on the appearance of flesh; the wine takes on the appearance of blood.
No. The substance of the species is changed; it’s reality is changed. Not it’s appearance, which would be just some magic trick.
JUST as a screwdriver can be literally transformed into a hammer, even though it may still appear to be a screwdriver, the two literally become flesh and blood, even though they appear to be still just bread and wine.
Thank you for explaining this. I apologize for imputing to you the very common belief that Genesis was adapted from "earlier" pagan mythologies.
However, we still have the troubling problem of you insisting that Genesis is free only from "theological" error. As you may know, while this is a perfectly legitimate interpretation of current Catholic teaching it has not always been taught that way. Prior to the twentieth century it was conventionally taught that the Bible was free from all error whatsoever on any subject. This was taught by Leo XIII as well as the early Popes of the twentieth century as you may see for yourself in places where this is expounded such as Living Tradition or Robert Sungenis' web site (unfortunately Sungenis has become a lunatic anti-Semite and he has strange ideas about the Genesis genealogies as well, but at least he can provide quotes from earlier sources). So what we have here is your admission that you believe in limited rather than full inerrancy. Limited inerrancy is a new doctrine. It is new because Catholicism is constantly evolving, however slowly (which may be why it is so fond of evolution).
As to Augustine, the fact is that you have to invoke him because he is the only one you can. Augustine's bias against Genesis is well-known and has been dealt with by others. This is a case of giving one church father the authority to overturn all the others because he's the only one you can find.
But the point I am trying to make is that if you allow science to modify ancient teachings on Genesis, then you must allow it to modify other teachings as well--including transubstantiation. Thus your invoking of church fathers as an authority on transubstantiation is hypocritical because most of those same fathers interpreted Genesis literally, yet you dismiss their teachings as "naive." Once science proves that transubstantiation does not occur you will reject their teaching on that as well--unless you hold on to it simply because "those people" don't believe it.
I reiterate--your belief in limited inerrancy is acceptable now because Catholicism has changed (just as Raymond Brown said it did). It was not acceptable decades ago.
Why you Catholics are so fond of the universe forming "naturally" is absolutely beyond me.
Scripture is not wrong, John O’Brien is. In fact I find it so hard to believe that someone could actually believe...
“The priest speaks and lo! Christ, the eternal and omnipotent God, bows His head in humble obedience to the priest’s command.”
First, I am not Catholic. And second, the Catholic Church may be mystical in some ways, but it is very "scientific" and skeptical when it comes to the Bible. Shame on them.
You obviously believe Genesis was "inspired." That is a poor understanding of the truth.
Genesis (and the rest of the Torah) was not written by any human being whatsoever. Not even Moses is the author (much less your obviously held theory of JEPD).
The Torah was written by G-d 974 generations before the Creation in letters of black fire upon a scroll of white fire. Then in the 26th generation of the world (974+26=1000) it was dictated to Moses letter for letter, who took it down as a stenographer. The Torah pre-existed the universe because it was the pattern, the blueprint, the DNA of creation (what you Notzerim call the "logos").
Of course you deny this dogmatically. Very well. But whine and bawl when scholars tear your gospels to shreds just as you have done to the Holy Torah!
A screwdriver used as a hammer is still a screwdriver. Based on my experience, it often becomes a screwdriver held in a bloody hand, after it slips to one side and my fingers hit the nail.
If you call the tail of a horse a leg, the horse still has FOUR legs.
And why would we drink the blood of Christ for a Passover? Why don’t we splash the ‘blood’ above the doors?
You wrote:
“Because of transubstantiation? What does that even mean?”
Have you developed a case of amnesia? Here’s what you wrote: “He used quotes from ancient church authorities to defend transubstantiation but he obviously rejects the church fathers as “men of their time” when it comes to Genesis because he invokes Gilgamesh.” (Post #69)
“Anytime someone says Genesis “reads like Gilgamesh” I don’t have to know anything more about his other motivations.”
Why? If someone says the Book of Mormon reads like the King James Bible does that mean the KJV is some how less inspired? No. And, if you’ve ever read Gilgamesh, you would know there are some interesting parallels. I have always believed those parallels exist in Gilgamesh because they were taken from the oral history of the Hebrews before being inscripturated by Moses.
Besides bdeaner said in post #29 “Genesis is more in the style of Gilgamesh, whereas the Gospels are more in the style of biography.” bedeaner did not say Genesis was taken from Gilgamesh nor did he say that they read the same. He said it had similar style. bdeaner is not alone in seeing that: http://amath.colorado.edu/carnegie/humn/PDFdocs/Flood.pdf
“If you think the literal truth of Genesis is important then why are you attacking me and defending bdeaner?”
I am not attacking you. You, however, have repeatedly falsely accused me of saying something I never said or thought. Who is attacking who here then? Also, why wouldn’t I defend bdeaner when you’re going off on him and are in the wrong in several ways?
“Why are you implying one position is as good as the other?”
I implied no such thing. I did - clearly - point out that both are permissable at this time and bdeaner said exactly the same thing.
“Is it a mere “circling of the wagons” among Catholics? I could understand that up to a point, but to do so when a co-religionist is saying that Genesis “reads like Gilgamesh?””
That’s not what he said. Again, this is what he said, “Genesis is more in the style of Gilgamesh, whereas the Gospels are more in the style of biography.”
“I notice you have not replied to the information on traditional Jewish chronology. That is good, as I assume that you accept this as Jewish chronology, whether you personally agree with it or not. Here are a couple little gems for you: when Noach died Abraham was 58 years old. This is alluded to in Noach’s name (nun-chet) which has the numerical value of 58. Oh, and after Cain killed Abel Adam lived apart from Eve for 120 years, so during that time only the Cainites multiplied. He was shamed back into joining her (and producing Shet) after presiding at the trial of Lemekh). Oh, and when Adam died Metushelach was 243 years old. All very nice bits of information, and didactic as well as factual.”
Interesting. I can’t say that I have heard of these details before. I don’t know how much stock I would put into them IF THEY are ONLY Jewish traditions. How do you know that the 120 years of Adam you mentioned is not a corruption of the 120 years lifespan dictated by God? (Genesis 6:3)
You wrote:
“Why you Catholics are so fond of the universe forming “naturally” is absolutely beyond me.”
Who EXACTLY is “you”? You’re doing it again. You’re saying I, or every Catholic out there, believes something that another person may have said. That’s just wrong and completely unfair.
“You obviously believe Genesis was “inspired.” That is a poor understanding of the truth. Genesis (and the rest of the Torah) was not written by any human being whatsoever. Not even Moses is the author (much less your obviously held theory of JEPD).”
No. Moses was the inspired author. He was inspired by God.
Exodus 24:4: “And Moses wrote down all the words of the Lord. Then he arose early in the morning, and built an altar at the foot of the mountain with twelve pillars for the twelve tribes of Israel...Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it in the hearing of the people; and they said, ‘All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient!’”
Exodus 34:27: “Then the LORD said to Moses, ‘Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.’ “
Dt 31:9 “So Moses wrote this law and gave it to the priests, the sons of Levi who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and to all the elders of Israel.”
Dt 31:24-26 “And it came about, when Moses finished writing the words of this law in a book until they were complete, that Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, ‘Take this book of the law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD...’ “
The idea that Moses didn’t write down things under inspiration is simply wrong.
“The Torah was written by G-d 974 generations before the Creation in letters of black fire upon a scroll of white fire. Then in the 26th generation of the world (974+26=1000) it was dictated to Moses letter for letter, who took it down as a stenographer.”
So say you. Again, you seem to be accepting a Jewish tradition.
“The Torah pre-existed the universe because it was the pattern, the blueprint, the DNA of creation (what you Notzerim call the “logos”).”
I call Christ the Logos.
“Of course you deny this dogmatically. Very well. But whine and bawl when scholars tear your gospels to shreds just as you have done to the Holy Torah!”
I have never torn the Old Testament to shreds. Again, you claim something I have never said or done or attempted or even thought of. And apparently you’re doing it based on some sort of pseudo-mystical Jewish belief.
You wrote:
“Why don’t we splash the ‘blood’ above the doors?”
That’s the blood on the Cross. That’s why the Cross is called the doorway to heaven.
This always makes me think of the Dream of the Rood:
Listen! The choicest of visions I wish to tell,
which came as a dream in middle-night,
after voice-bearers lay at rest.
It seemed that I saw a most wondrous tree
born aloft, wound round by light,
brightest of beams. All was that beacon
sprinkled with gold. Gems stood
fair at earth’s corners; there likewise five
shone on the shoulder-span [ 1 ]. All there beheld the Angel of God [ 2 ],
fair through predestiny [ 3 ]. Indeed, that was no wicked one’s gallows,
but holy souls beheld it there,
men over earth, and all this great creation.
Wondrous that victory-beam—and I stained with sins,
with wounds of disgrace. I saw glory’s tree
honored with trappings, shining with joys,
decked with gold; gems had
wrapped that forest tree worthily round.
Yet through that gold I clearly perceived
old strife of wretches [ 4 ], when first it began
to bleed on its right side. With sorrows most troubled,
I feared that fair sight. I saw that doom-beacon [ 5 ]
turn trappings and hews: sometimes with water wet,
drenched with blood’s going; sometimes with jewels decked.
But lying there long while, I,
troubled, beheld the Healer’s tree,
until I heard its fair voice.
Then best wood spoke these words:
“It was long since—I yet remember it—
that I was hewn at holt’s end,
moved from my stem. Strong fiends seized me there,
worked me for spectacle; cursèd ones lifted me [ 6 ].
On shoulders men bore me there, then fixed me on hill;
fiends enough fastened me. Then saw I mankind’s Lord
come with great courage when he would mount on me.
Then dared I not against the Lord’s word
bend or break, when I saw earth’s
fields shake. All fiends
I could have felled, but I stood fast.
The young hero stripped himself—he, God Almighty—
strong and stout-minded. He mounted high gallows,
bold before many, when he would loose mankind.
I shook when that Man clasped me. I dared, still, not bow to earth,
fall to earth’s fields, but had to stand fast.
Rood was I reared. I lifted a mighty King,
Lord of the heavens, dared not to bend.
With dark nails they drove me through: on me those sores are seen,
open malice-wounds. I dared not scathe anyone.
They mocked us both, we two together [ 7 ]. All wet with blood I was,
poured out from that Man’s side, after ghost he gave up.
Much have I born on that hill
of fierce fate. I saw the God of hosts
harshly stretched out. Darknesses had
wound round with clouds the corpse of the Wielder,
bright radiance; a shadow went forth,
dark under heaven. All creation wept,
King’s fall lamented. Christ was on rood.
But there eager ones came from afar
to that noble one. I beheld all that.
Sore was I with sorrows distressed, yet I bent to men’s hands,
with great zeal willing. They took there Almighty God,
lifted him from that grim torment. Those warriors abandoned me
standing all blood-drenched, all wounded with arrows.
They laid there the limb-weary one, stood at his body’s head;
beheld they there heaven’s Lord, and he himself rested there,
worn from that great strife. Then they worked him an earth-house,
men in the slayer’s sight carved it from bright stone,
set in it the Wielder of Victories. Then they sang him a sorrow-song,
sad in the eventide, when they would go again
with grief from that great Lord. He rested there, with small company.
But we there lamenting a good while
stood in our places after the warrior’s cry
went up. Corpse grew cold,
fair life-dwelling. Then someone felled us
all to the earth. That was a dreadful fate!
Deep in a pit one delved us. Yet there Lord’s thanes,
friends, learned of me,. . . . . . . . . . .
adorned me with silver and gold.
Now you may know, loved man of mine,
what I, work of baleful ones, have endured
of sore sorrows. Now has the time come
when they will honor me far and wide,
men over earth, and all this great creation,
will pray for themselves to this beacon. On me God’s son
suffered awhile. Therefore I, glorious now,
rise under heaven, and I may heal
any of those who will reverence me.
Once I became hardest of torments,
most loathly to men, before I for them,
voice-bearers, life’s right way opened.
Indeed, Glory’s Prince, Heaven’s Protector,
honored me, then, over holm-wood [ 8 ].
Thus he his mother, Mary herself,
Almighty God, for all men,
also has honored over all woman-kind.
Now I command you, loved man of mine,
that you this seeing [ 9 ] tell unto men;
discover with words that it is glory’s beam
which Almighty God suffered upon
for all mankind’s manifold sins
and for the ancient ill-deeds of Adam.
Death he tasted there, yet God rose again
by his great might, a help unto men.
He then rose to heaven. Again sets out hither
into this Middle-Earth, seeking mankind
on Doomsday, the Lord himself,
Almighty God, and with him his angels,
when he will deem—he holds power of doom—
everyone here as he will have earned
for himself earlier in this brief life.
Nor may there be any unafraid
for the words that the Wielder speaks.
He asks before multitudes where that one is
who for God’s name would gladly taste
bitter death, as before he on beam did.
And they then are afraid, and few think
what they can to Christ’s question answer [ 10 ].
Nor need there then any be most afraid [ 11 ]
who ere in his breast bears finest of beacons;
but through that rood shall each soul
from the earth-way enter the kingdom,
who with the Wielder thinks yet to dwell.”
I prayed then to that beam with blithe mind,
great zeal, where I alone was
with small company [ 12 ]. My heart was
impelled on the forth-way, waited for in each
longing-while. For me now life’s hope:
that I may seek that victory-beam
alone more often than all men,
honor it well. My desire for that
is much in mind, and my hope of protection
reverts to the rood. I have not now many
strong friends on this earth; they forth hence
have departed from world’s joys, have sought themselves glory’s King;
they live now in heaven with the High-Father,
dwell still in glory, and I for myself expect
each of my days the time when the Lord’s rood,
which I here on earth formerly saw,
from this loaned life will fetch me away
and bring me then where is much bliss,
joy in the heavens, where the Lord’s folk
is seated at feast, where is bliss everlasting;
and set me then where I after may
dwell in glory, well with those saints
delights to enjoy. May he be friend to me
who here on earth earlier died
on that gallows-tree for mankind’s sins.
He loosed us and life gave,
a heavenly home. Hope was renewed
with glory and gladness to those who there burning endured.
That Son was victory-fast [ 13 ] in that great venture,
with might and good-speed [ 14 ], when he with many,
vast host of souls, came to God’s kingdom,
One-Wielder Almighty: bliss to the angels
and all the saints—those who in heaven
dwelt long in glory—when their Wielder came,
Almighty God, where his homeland was.
Annotations
[ 1 ] shoulder-span. OE eaxlegespanne. Of this hapax legomenon, Swanton writes: “It would be tempting to identify this with the ‘axle-tree’ or centre-piece of the cross, although ‘axle’ in this sense of wheel-centre is not otherwise recorded before the thirteenth century. . . . It might . . . simply refer to the beam of the gallows along which Christ’s arms were stretched, although the ‘crux gemmata’ normally has jewels along all four arms.” [Return to text]
[ 2 ] All . . . God. Most editors assume that engel ‘angel’ is the subject of the sentence, but I follow Swanton in treating ealle ‘all’ as subject and engel as object. Swanton considers this to cause difficulties about identifying the engel, but the OE word can carry the sense ‘messenger,’ which obviously suggests that the Cross itself is the engel dryhtnes ‘angel/messenger of God.’ [Return to text]
[ 3 ] fair . . . predestiny. OE fægere þurh forðgesceaft, an ambiguous phrase, forðgesceaft being used elsewhere to mean both ‘creation’ and ‘future destiny.’ See Swanton for a discussion of the possibilities. My translation indicates that I take it to mean ‘what is preordained.’ Thus the Rood is part of an eternal plan, like “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8). [Return to text]
[ 4 ] old strife of wretches. OE earmra ærgewin, lit. ‘of wretches ere-strife.’ The phrase, in this context, appears to refer to the whole battle between Christ and Satan, Good and Evil; more immediately, of course, it refers to Christ’s Passion, viewed as battle. [Return to text]
[ 5 ] doom-beacon. OE fuse beacen. Considering that “the word fus is commonly associated with death,” Swanton notes: “Clearly, within the poet’s vision we must recognize not simply the church year hastening to its sacrificial end, but a concrete symbol of death and the doom to come. This beacen is at once an emblem of death (Christ’s) and of doom (that of the dreamer and world). At Judgement Day it is this symbol that will be seen again in the heavens. . . .” [Return to text]
[ 6 ] cursèd . . . me. As Swanton observes, the syntax could conceivably support the rendering “made me lift cursèd ones.” [Return to text]
[ 7 ] both . . . together. OE unc butu ætgædere ‘we two both together.’ Unc is dual in number, underscoring the close relationship—the near identification—of Cross and Christ in the poem. [Return to text]
[ 8 ] holm-wood. OE holmwudu, a hapax legomenon and obscure. Swanton notes three possible ways to find meaning in the term: (1) interpret it as ‘sea-wood’ (either ‘ship’ or—more understandably—lignum vitae ‘tree of life,’ which grows by the waters of Paradise); (2) emend to holtwudu ‘forest wood’; or (3) take holm in the OS sense ‘hill,’ providing a “powerful oblique reference to the gallows of Golgotha.” [Return to text]
[ 9 ] seeing. OE gesyhð ‘thing seen, vision’ (> NE sight), clearly referring to the dreamer’s vision of the Cross. B. Huppé, Web of Words, entitles this poem “Gesyhþ rodes.” [Return to text]
[ 10 ] Christ’s . . . answer. More literally: “what they may begin to say to Christ.” [Return to text]
[ 11 ] most afraid. OE unforht, usually emended to anforht ‘fearful’; Swanton retains the MS reading un- as an intensive: ‘very afraid.’ [Return to text]
[ 12 ] small company. See line 69. This is one of the numerous echoes set up to link Christ, Cross, and Dreamer. [Return to text]
[ 13 ] victory-fast. I.e., secure in or sure of victory. [Return to text]
[ 14 ] with . . . good-speed. OE mihtig ond spedig ‘mighty and successful’ (the latter being the original meaning of speedy). [Return to text]
Ahhhh! Here’s the site: http://faculty.uca.edu/jona/texts/rood.htm
Didn't matter what they knew or didn't know...Jesus knew...And Jesus said get the room for the passover meal...And they did...
Here's what Our Lord actually said: [Matthew 26:17-19] 17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover? 18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. 19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.
If you folks that have King James' version will notice, the words in Italics make this passage extremely misleading. The words "Day of the Feast" are not in the original Greek......so this was NOT the first day of the Feast as many have falsely taught....and evidently believe. As I said in my earlier post, sometimes it took as many as two full days to "Prepare" for Passover but in this instance it appeared that one day was going to be satisfactory and this is what the disciples had set out to do in verse #19....to begin making ready for the Passover.
As sundown occurred that day, the 13th.....it began the Day of Preparation [Leviticus 23:5] which is itself called Passover (the 14th). Passover precedes the seven Day Feast of Unleavened Bread (verse 6) but the entire eight day observance is called... sometimes, "The Days of Unleavened" much as we refer to the days before and following Christmas as the Christmas season.
To reiterate.....Passover is the day of Preparation. This is the day the home is prepared for the feast. This is the day the lamb is slaughtered and this was the day of Our Lord's death. That is confirmed in all gospel accounts:
[Matthew 27:62] Now the next day )(the 15th), that followed the day of the preparation (the 14th), the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate. Our Lord has now been buried and the Chief Priests are asking Pilate to secure the tomb. This is the day after the Preparation (the 14th)....this was the day the Passover is to be eaten (the 15th). No one at the Last Supper.....the night before (the 14th) had eaten a Passover meal.
[Mark 15:42-46] 42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation (the 14th), that is, the day before the sabbath, 43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus. 44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead. 45 And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph. 46 And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre. As you can see Our Lord has been entombed... it is still the Day of Preparation and no one as yet has eaten the Passover.
[Luke 23:50-54] 50 And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a counsellor; and he was a good man, and a just: 51 (The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them;) he was of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God. 52 This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. 53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid. 54 And that day was the preparation (the 14th), and the sabbath drew on. Again....Our Lord will be shortly entombed on this Day of Preparation.....and no one has yet eaten the Passover.
[John 18:28-29] 28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover. 29 Pilate then went out unto them, and said, What accusation bring ye against this man? The Lord has been arrested, it is now the morning of the 14th (Passover), He has been before the Sanhedrin, now before Pilate and soon to be crucified.
[John 19:13-16] 13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha. 14 And it was the preparation of the passover (the 14th), and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! 15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar. 16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away. Our Lord is about to be crucified, it is still the Day of Preparation.....and no one as yet (including Our Lord and the Disciples) has eaten the Passover.
[John 19:31] 31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation (the 14th), that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) (the 15th) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. Our Lord is now dead.....being crucified, it is still the Day of Preparation and no one has yet eaten the Passover.
The meal is eaten when the sundown of the 14th becomes the evening of the 15th. [Exodus 12:15] Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel. When Passover (Preparation) ends.... The Feast of Unleavened Bread begins, and this is when the Passover Lamb is eaten. Our Lord was Our Passover lamb [I Corinthians 5:7-8] and He was killed on the Day of Preparation.....before anyone, anywhere had eaten the Passover! The Lord's Supper was not a Passover Seder....it was a supper.
Now, I'm not even going to bother showing you that the Greek word for bread used in this "Last Supper" was not unleavened Bread....but regular bread. That is, of course, unless you continue to insist that the Apostles and Our Lord celebrated a Passover Seder in the upper room on the night of the 14th.
But that's NOT what the scripture says...The scripture says Jesus told them to get a room and prepare for the passover which Jesus planned on attending...And He did...And it was a one day deal...They didn't get the room for a week..
And.....that's exactly what they did. They began to prepare for the Passover. They also were using this room after the crucifixion/resurrection as a hideout [Luke 24:33-49][John 20:19-31] and continued using it for a week:[John 20:26] And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
From what I've read, it is not necessary for the lamb to be killed in the temple..
Yes it was. If you were in Jerusalem....for the Passover, you procured your sacrificed lamb at the temple. No meat was eaten, no visit to the temple was noted and the feast would not be until the next evening anyway.
The scripture says they HAD eaten it...Likely it was for the feast of unleavened bread..
Well.....hopefully....now that you have read my post, your understanding of the events will help you see the error in your statement. The Feast of Unleavened Bread is when the Passover is eaten.....the night time of the 15th.
I am happy for this to be an ecumenical discussion, and all are welcome to contribute — Catholic or otherwise. The only thing I ask is that we all try to stick to evidence and rational argumentation, and avoid inflammatory language. I think everyone is doing a pretty good job of that. I’m learning a lot, and I’ve learned a few things I didn’t know from your posts — so thanks.
Is this Jewish Tradition? Duh. What are you, a "protestant?" If there is such a thing as an authentic oral interpretive tradition then obviously it lies with the original community to whom the Torah was given, not to some new religion that came along a thousand years later and paved the way for Protestantism by rejecting the Oral Torah.
This is the whole difference between liturgical and "bible-only" chr*stians--the former reject the traditions and ceremonial of the Hebrew Bible and replace them with their own; the latter reject the traditions and ceremonials of the Hebrew Bible and refuse to replace them with others on the very logical assumption that if there were an authentic tradition and a valid ceremonial it would be those of the Hebrew Bible.
As for my remark about bedeaner and transubstantiation, I pointed out that his invocation of church fathers whose views he rejects in other matters is the height of hypocrisy, and so it is.
Since both evolution and creation are equally permissible, why are you messing with the Kolbe Center? Why does the Kolbe Center even exist?
You wrote:
“Moses is not the author of the Torah, inspired or otherwise.”
Actually Moses was - as I already pointed out with verses.
“Is this Jewish Tradition? Duh. What are you, a “protestant?””
More apt in this case would be, “Am I a Jew?” And the answer is no. I put no great stock in Jewish traditions. I remember how my Lord looked at some Jewish traditions, for instance.
“If there is such a thing as an authentic oral interpretive tradition then obviously it lies with the original community to whom the Torah was given, not to some new religion that came along a thousand years later and paved the way for Protestantism by rejecting the Oral Torah.”
No. The authority falls to those whom Jesus gave it to. That’s the Church. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to the Church - not the Jews who rejected Him.
“Since both evolution and creation are equally permissible, why are you messing with the Kolbe Center?”
I’m not messing with the Kolbe Center. I don’t mess with anything or anyone.
“Why does the Kolbe Center even exist?’
Look at their webpage to find out.
There is one thing which all chr*stians--from the most philo-Semitic and Biblicist to the the most classical, anti-Biblical, and liturgical, have in common: an a priori assumption of the truth of chr*stianity that rests on absolutely nothing but is simply assumed. I've learned this the hard way.
You are more than welcome to your groundless illusion.
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