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To: bdeaner; vladimir998
Zionist Conspirator, you misunderstood my comments on Genesis. I believe without doubt that Genesis is an inspired Biblical text and without theological error whatsoever. The question, rather, is how it should be interpretation hermeneutically. The style of the text is different than the Gospels, I said. The style of Genesis is similar to creation myths such as Gilgamesh, but I would never agree with a statement that Genesis is "plagiarized" from Gilgamesh. The point is that the STYLE of Genesis is similar to Gilgamesh -- it is a creation narrative -- but Gilgamesh is not an inspired Scripture and does not possess the theological truths that are authoritatively present in Genesis. In contrast to Genesis, the STYLE of the Gospels are not of biography. These different styles, both containing theological truths that are inspired and without error, nevertheless lend themselves to different hermeneutic rules of interpretation.

Thank you for explaining this. I apologize for imputing to you the very common belief that Genesis was adapted from "earlier" pagan mythologies.

However, we still have the troubling problem of you insisting that Genesis is free only from "theological" error. As you may know, while this is a perfectly legitimate interpretation of current Catholic teaching it has not always been taught that way. Prior to the twentieth century it was conventionally taught that the Bible was free from all error whatsoever on any subject. This was taught by Leo XIII as well as the early Popes of the twentieth century as you may see for yourself in places where this is expounded such as Living Tradition or Robert Sungenis' web site (unfortunately Sungenis has become a lunatic anti-Semite and he has strange ideas about the Genesis genealogies as well, but at least he can provide quotes from earlier sources). So what we have here is your admission that you believe in limited rather than full inerrancy. Limited inerrancy is a new doctrine. It is new because Catholicism is constantly evolving, however slowly (which may be why it is so fond of evolution).

As to Augustine, the fact is that you have to invoke him because he is the only one you can. Augustine's bias against Genesis is well-known and has been dealt with by others. This is a case of giving one church father the authority to overturn all the others because he's the only one you can find.

But the point I am trying to make is that if you allow science to modify ancient teachings on Genesis, then you must allow it to modify other teachings as well--including transubstantiation. Thus your invoking of church fathers as an authority on transubstantiation is hypocritical because most of those same fathers interpreted Genesis literally, yet you dismiss their teachings as "naive." Once science proves that transubstantiation does not occur you will reject their teaching on that as well--unless you hold on to it simply because "those people" don't believe it.

I reiterate--your belief in limited inerrancy is acceptable now because Catholicism has changed (just as Raymond Brown said it did). It was not acceptable decades ago.

Why you Catholics are so fond of the universe forming "naturally" is absolutely beyond me.

106 posted on 06/15/2009 12:04:20 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator ( . . . Vayiqra' Mosheh leHoshe`a Bin-Nun Yehoshu`a.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

You wrote:

“Why you Catholics are so fond of the universe forming “naturally” is absolutely beyond me.”

Who EXACTLY is “you”? You’re doing it again. You’re saying I, or every Catholic out there, believes something that another person may have said. That’s just wrong and completely unfair.

“You obviously believe Genesis was “inspired.” That is a poor understanding of the truth. Genesis (and the rest of the Torah) was not written by any human being whatsoever. Not even Moses is the author (much less your obviously held theory of JEPD).”

No. Moses was the inspired author. He was inspired by God.

Exodus 24:4: “And Moses wrote down all the words of the Lord. Then he arose early in the morning, and built an altar at the foot of the mountain with twelve pillars for the twelve tribes of Israel...Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it in the hearing of the people; and they said, ‘All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient!’”

Exodus 34:27: “Then the LORD said to Moses, ‘Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.’ “

Dt 31:9 “So Moses wrote this law and gave it to the priests, the sons of Levi who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and to all the elders of Israel.”

Dt 31:24-26 “And it came about, when Moses finished writing the words of this law in a book until they were complete, that Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, ‘Take this book of the law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD...’ “

The idea that Moses didn’t write down things under inspiration is simply wrong.

“The Torah was written by G-d 974 generations before the Creation in letters of black fire upon a scroll of white fire. Then in the 26th generation of the world (974+26=1000) it was dictated to Moses letter for letter, who took it down as a stenographer.”

So say you. Again, you seem to be accepting a Jewish tradition.

“The Torah pre-existed the universe because it was the pattern, the blueprint, the DNA of creation (what you Notzerim call the “logos”).”

I call Christ the Logos.

“Of course you deny this dogmatically. Very well. But whine and bawl when scholars tear your gospels to shreds just as you have done to the Holy Torah!”

I have never torn the Old Testament to shreds. Again, you claim something I have never said or done or attempted or even thought of. And apparently you’re doing it based on some sort of pseudo-mystical Jewish belief.


113 posted on 06/15/2009 12:32:06 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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