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To: Salvation

My friend, I have read it and believe it!

You read it. Read it in the greek..low estate.. the greek is more powerful. it means vile estate...I rejoice in my God my Savior... (she needed as Savior..thus she was a sinner like you and me. Those passages destroy the Catholic position and traditions that they have about a non Biblical Mary.

You must choose what authority to believe tradfition and fables or Holy Scripture authority. I have made my desinion.


12 posted on 06/11/2009 6:53:11 PM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman (The TRUTH will set you Free..... Republic)
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

She is rejoicing not asking for mercy.


13 posted on 06/11/2009 8:32:51 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

Sorry I got your name wrong in that post. I meant to type IgFi


15 posted on 06/11/2009 8:40:25 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman
Additional information for you to check out on the Magnificat. It is a Song of Praise.

The Prayer of the Virgin Mary, The Magnificat - The Canticle of Mary
MARY SINGS THE PRAISES OF GOD’S MERCY [Magnificat, Canticle of Mary]
The Magnificat: Mary’s Own Prayer
Prayer and Meditation: Magnificat anima mea Dominum
Story of the Little Prayer Book That Could (George Weigel on the Magnificat [magazine])

16 posted on 06/11/2009 8:44:33 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

“You must choose what authority to believe tradfition and fables or Holy Scripture authority.”

The New Testament is solely a Catholic document and as such they have the Authority to declare that the New Testament is not a complete record of Christian doctrine. In fact, everything in the New Testament was Sacred Tradition before the Sacred Magisterium of the Catholic Church elevated it as Sacred Scripture. And both the Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition cannot be correctly interpreted without Sacred Magisterium. Those are the facts.

Sacred Scripture:

“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.” (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

“I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.” (1 Corinthians 11:2)

“But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.” (John 21:25)


21 posted on 06/11/2009 10:46:06 PM PDT by bronxville
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman
Ummmm . . . answering the call for a Greek reader here (can't call myself a scholar - only two years of Classical and Homeric in college).

tapeinwsis in my Liddell and Scott is translated as low estate, or spiritual abasement (that's a classical, not a koine, dictionary so it has no theological axe to grind). It appears to derive from the word for "short" as in "low stature". It has a secondary meaning of "low" as in mean or poor - as your grandmother might say, "Don't act like that, it's low!"

So I suppose if you really wanted to stretch a point you could get all the way to "vile", but that's doing violence to the Greek, especially in the context, since the Archangel has just addressed Mary as kecaritwmenh - "completely graced". The verb form is interesting and unique because it implies that this is a 'steady state' and has existed from all time.

It's also interesting if you look at a parallel Greek Testament (there are several on line, from Bible Colleges as well as scholarly sites) there is NO translation that goes for your interpretation of "vile" - all link together "servant" or "handmaiden" and "humility", including Young's Literal Translation - and Young was a Scotch Presbyterian and a Wee Free at that (and a notable scholar in both Hebrew and Greek).

Where did you get the interpretation of tapeinwsis as "vile"? Did you consult a dictionary? Did you read it in a scholarly work? Source, please.

24 posted on 06/12/2009 5:29:13 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman; AnAmericanMother
Thanks to American Mother for her work with your question about the Greek. Given her points, I too would like to see how you translate it as "vile estate".

About your separate issue of "God my Savior", I believe you may find this article on catholic.com helpful. Immaculate Conception and Assumption. Pay close attention to the section "Fundamentalists' Objections". It begins, "Fundamentalists’ chief reason for objecting to the Immaculate Conception and Mary’s consequent sinlessness is that we are told that "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:23). Besides, they say, Mary said her "spirit rejoices in God my Savior" (Luke 1:47), and only a sinner needs a Savior."

The main point is that Catholics don't deny that Mary "needed a Savior". The way she was saved was simply different than the rest of us.

These are, I believe, all examples of poor catechesis; a common problem that plagues the Church. This isn't meant to disparage you; believe me probably about 95% of Catholics are taught about the Faith poorly. Pretty much all of us are "re-learning" our faith thanks to the tool of the Internet and other easily accessible sources of information.

This poor catechesis is the primary reason why so many, when they "pick up their Bibles and read for themselves" leave the Church. It's not that the Bible contradicts Catholicism; it's simply that many Catholics aren't taught how the two actually do agree!

I urge you, brother, to consider the possibility that you were simply taught erroneous beliefs about Catholicism (or you were given incomplete teaching) when you were younger, and re-examine the Faith today, learning what Catholics really do believe, and not what you think we believe.

The truly best way to do this is, ironically, on your own. Read catholic.com. Visit with a priest. Listen to programs like, "The Journey Home".

Debates on Internet fora can only take you so far; and ultimately people (in the heat of debate especially) will say something wrong. Thus, online debates should not be the benchmark for one's acceptance or rejection of Catholicism.

28 posted on 06/12/2009 9:28:43 AM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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