If Roeder's intentions were "justice" then he deserves the death penalty as seeking "justice" is not an excuse or a justification for taking another's life.
On the other hand, if his motivation was to prevent Tiller from committing more murders and all legal remedies to that end had been exhausted (and they had) then I believe he has a legal justification under the doctrine of "defense of others".
Which dovetails into something I have posted in other places. When free Christian men (the universal "men") strive for JUSTICE over Liberty, both are lost.
Seems that is what our government is doing, seeking "justice" to commit sins (covetousness; spreading the wealth) while thinking that "liberty" is not affected.
Liberty should be retained, even at the cost of justice as the latter flows from the former.
John Brown started a fight that killed 600k to end slavery, never mind that the US was the only major power to do so in a war. Most other European states did so by law, with little bloodshed and didn't have the social stains and bad racial divisions like we did.
If you and others keep following this path, there will be war that makes the last Civil War look like a bad day in the Religion forum. In the last war, there were defined states of “free” and “slave”. Areas where like minded people could flee to or move to. Now, it would be house to house, block by block, much like the Finnish civil war.
Is that what you want? Is that what Christ's message is?
“if his motivation was to prevent Tiller from committing more murders and all legal remedies to that end had been exhausted (and they had) then I believe he has a legal justification under the doctrine of “defense of others”.
++++++++++++++
We are hearing that all other avenues had been exhausted.
What?
Had Roeder rallied all the pro-life groups all across Kansas to oppose Sebelius and take back the state?
Had Roeder started prayer and candlelight vigils?
Had Roeder conducted Concerts of Prayer to bring revival to the churches there, usher in thousands of new conversions to the Christian and pro-life cause?
Had Roeder helped to reignite the Operation Rescue protests of the 1990s?
Had Roeder raised funds and massive awareness for adoptions and in so doing raised the bar for life - again and again and again?
Had Roeder gone to the schools with his wife to persuade the coming generation the Life and giving Life to others is the truly most blessed gift a person can give?
Had Roeder helped raise his own family and neighbors as disciples of Jesus Christ, who would disciple still others also (1 Tim. 2:2)?
How can we say ‘all legal remedies’ had been exhausted? (and I know you meant this probably in the narrow legal sense - but that’s EXACTLY my point) What does that mean in a pro-life sense? Truly??
With Truth and God on our side - the remedies to bring back a Life ethic are never exhausted. Not unless you believe God grows weary, or His Might is somehow limited. Of if you do not believe in God. Then, at that point, you may think you need to take what is God’s to do, into your own hands. That is a dangerous place of unbelief, for many who claim faith in God on this matter - and certainly for those like Roeder who apparently thought God has grown weary and exhausted.
Nothing is further from the truth. Will we accept the Truth of God, or a lie on this matter?
If all of us rise up and together do what is within our own reach to promote life in such ways as mentioned above, we will end significant abortion in this nation.
Until then we’re fooling ourselves that Roeder had any impact whatsoever, other than negative on the incidence of abortion. Roeder’s lone act was a non-sequitor.
Our combined acts of love and life, will end abortion in this nation.
I may be totally wrong, but wasn’t Tiller still up on charges for something like 12 botched abortions that resulted in injury to the mothers? If so, then there were still legal things pending, so the argument that all options were exhausted, that wouldn’t be true. But, as I said, I could be wrong.
Just saying, this is why I’m glad I’m not God. I wouldn’t want to stand in a place to judge this mess, but he’ll work it all out in the end... I honestly just can’t believe there are people who would perform late-late term abortions when the babies could survive outside the womb! For gosh sakes there are a ton of couples everywhere that might adopt that child, but they kill it instead. That’s like the WORST thing I can imagine — that and the born alive abortion situation where they cast the baby aside...
I don’t know how anyone could be “OK” with the late-term abortions, or the Born Alive Babies that are cast aside. I honestly don’t think that many who think they are pro-choice know exactly what it is they are condoning most times.
I think those who are “pro-choice” to think of abortions happening very early in pregnancy, and they don’t bother to think about all the “unintended consequences” of the situation we face in this country regarding abortions, and the work of ‘doctors’ like this — especially those whose clinics are not properly staffed, and they are not prepared as they should be for complications.
I definitely don’t condone what Roeder did by killing Tiller. It was wrong. Killing is definitely not the way to end the killings in this case.
One more comment I had on this — Many people are pro-life in the sense that they themselves would NEVER have an abortion, but they are scared people will still seek them even if they are made illegal, with horrid consequences (Back-Alley Abortion Clinics). They understand the morality of not killing a conceived child, but are unwilling to follow through and make the necessary changes to the laws.
I felt this way as a teenager, and young adult. I lived my life according to how I believed (my then-boyfriend (now husband for almost 17 years) and I had our first child when I was 19 and he had just turned 21 — abortion was never considered). However, I too was scared that if we made abortion illegal then there would be horrible consequences. As I got older though I began to see that those things I was afraid of — well, it’s still the same actions taken on the part of mothers, with doctors assisting to kill their children. If it was so horrible if it was illegal, why is it not horrible just because some court has said it’s OK?
I was also faced with a friend who said she was Pro-Life — even moreso than I was in my teens and early twenties. She got some tests done, and it was determined that her baby might have downs syndrome. I urged her not to abort the child, and her motive was selfish (do you know how hard it is to raise a handicapped child?). Then she said I just wouldn’t understand because all my four children were healthy.
That encounter with my friend (and knowing that sometimes the DS tests are false-positives) horrified me. It also pretty much cemented my belief now that abortion IS murder, and it should be punished as such — both the mother who seeks an abortion, and the doctor who performs it except perhaps in emergency medical situations, but all possible must be done to protect the life of the mother AND the child... Roe v. Wade is Unconstitutional, IMHO - and as Thompson said, “It’s just bad law”. Murder of a pre-born infant should be included in the Criminal Codes of the States themselves — that’s my view on the law part.
I truly believe that if we want the killings to stop we have to definitely speak with those who say they are pro-life, but believe in “pro-choice” laws. Most of the time I think they see it as not forcing their morality on others because many equate Pro-Life with Religious beliefs. The thing is - if it truly is murder - then you are not forcing a religious belief, you are protecting an innocent child’s life, and a mother from a lifetime of grief and guilt, too. If we can get these “Pro-life/Pro-Choicers” to see the light there might be a chance to change things...
ALL JMHO! :)