Catholic Doctrine on the Holy Trinity

Excellent. Thank you so much Salvation!

You really don’t understand too much about the Catholic Church in my opinion. Please educate yourself.

Every Catholic is born again at their Holy Baptism.

The learning ALWAYS preceeds the Baptism (except in the case of infants.)

[ You really don’t understand too much about the Catholic Church in my opinion. Please educate yourself. / Every Catholic is born again at their Holy Baptism. / The learning ALWAYS preceeds the Baptism (except in the case of infants.) ]

You assume too much.... I quoted Jesus..
So being born again is merely procedural/ceremonial?..

Every Catholic is born again at their Holy Baptism.

[I John 5:18] Douay-Rheims [18 We know that whosoever is born of God, sinneth not: but the generation of God preserveth him, and the wicked one toucheth him not.]

How do you square your statement with this scripture? Are all baptized Catholics non-sinners?

Are you trying to say that the born-again don’t sin?

Diego1618:

This is whey 1 passage out of context is problematic. For example, St. Paul writes “all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God”, yet here we read “anyone born of God does not sin” (Romans 3:23). In this passage from ST. John, he is repeating something he stated back in chapter 3 verse 9 “God’s seed abides in him and he cannot sin”, which of course has to be seen in the context of the entire epistle from St. John. If you go back to the the fist chapter, St. John states “if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us” (c.f. 1 John 1:8) and then he follows that with “if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness’( c.f 1 John 1:9). Shortly after, St. John writes again “If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us” (c.f. 1 John 1:10).

So it is obvious that there is at the surface some internal contradictions in St. John’s epistle which is why the Catholic biblical interpretational principle of typology, i.e. reading everything in scripture in relation to the person of Christ can solve this problem and thus as the Catholic Church teaches, this principle allows us to read the scripture as a unified whole.

Thus, Christain sinfulness is based on God’s gift of Grace, which as Catholic Doctrine teaches, transforms and makes humanity holy, (i.e. sinless) and thus is not just a forensic covering of imputed justification, which is the Reformed teaching of Luther and Calvin.

To sinless, as understood in Catholic doctrine (discussed the Cathechism CCC 460) is rooted in “participation of the Divine Nature” or what the Eastern Tradition refers to as “Theosis”, which is a beautiful Doctrine that states that Human beings can have communion with God, and thus become like God to such a degree that humans can “partake in the Divine Nature” (c.f. 2 Peter 2:4). We become united with God by his Grace, through his son Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

The process of “Theosis” starts at Baptism where the CCC states the Baptized person has become a New Creature, (see CCC para. 1265)
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2.htm#art1

So the Catholic Church sees that through the Incarnation and Cross/Resurrection/Ascension, God has given us access to his Mercy and Love and by his Grace, which God gives us through the Sacraments, the inner person becomes renewed and transformed by Grace and through that Grace we become United to God and thus like God by Grace which of course God is by nature. In other words, Christ trough his Grace allows us to “partake in the Divine Nature” (c.f. 2 Peter 2:4). So through the incarnation of Christ, God is now really accessible to us and wants us to be in “communion with him”.

St. Paul in Ephesians speaks of the concept of “Theosis”
where he states “who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavens, as he chose us in him, before the foundation of the world, ‘to be holy and without blemish before him’” (c.f. Eph: 1:3-5). He writes “and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, so that you may be filled with all the Fullness of God” (c.f. Eph 3:19), and coming to “mature manhood, to the extent of the full stature of Christ” (c.f. Eph 4:13).

St. Paul in Chapter 6 of Romans takes up this theme here as well. In verses 1 to 4, he mentions Baptism then he states “For if we have grown into union with him through a death like his, we shall also be united with him in the resurrection” (c.f. Rom 6:5). Later St. Paul writes about being “conformed to the image of his Son” (c.f. Rom 8:29), which Catholics and Orthodox believe happens at Baptism (going back to Romans 6) and restores what was loss before the fall when Man and Woman was created in the Image of God (c.f. Gen 1:26-27).

So Catholic Theology, and The Eastern Orthodox Theology, has much more Theological depth than just being saved by God covering us with Grace, while still seeing us as filthy and Depraved (One of Calvin’s 5 Points of TULIP). While we distorted our Image (Divine Image, as we were originally created in God’s Image) as a result of Adam and Eve’s Sin (The Fall), through Christ, God is going to not only restore our True Image, but through his Grace, bring us into communion with the Holy Trinity, which is Love itself, and thus partake in the Divine Nature.

St Paul further writes “that you should put away the old self of your former way of life, corrupted through deceitful desires, and be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and put on the new self, created in God’s way in righteousness and holiness of truth” (c.f. Eph 4:22-23). St Paul writes “to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God…Do not conform yourself to this age but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and pleasing and perfect” (c.f. Rom 12-1-2).

St Paul speaks of May the God of peace himself make our perfectly holy an may you entirely, spirit, soul and body, be preserved blameless for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” (c.f. 1 Thes. 5:23) and why we are called which was “for obtaining the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ” (c.f. 2 Thes 2:14). In his letter to the Romans, St. Paul also talks about glory with respect to man as he writes “the Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him (c.f. Rom 8:16-17).

St. John states whoever remains in God’s Love remains in God and God in Him. In this love brought to perfection among us we have confidence on the day of judgment because as he is, so are we in this world” (c.f. 1 John 4:16-17).

Finally, two other verses alluding to the concept of “partaking of the Divine nature/Theosis” are 1 John 3:2: “We know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is” and St. Paul’s letter to the Philippians where he states: Christ will “transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body.” (c.f. Phil 3:21).

So, through Christ’s Incarnation, he joined our humanity and glorified it Himself and by the Paschal mystery, we are to be united with God in a communion of Love, and to live for all eternity. In this context, to partake in the Divine nature is in fact to become like God, which is not to say we become God. We will be in eternity and thus being like God, made perfectly holy by his Grace, but we will be praising God with all the Angels and Saints as Revelation tells us.

pax et bonum

Diego1618:

Editing note here. Obviously, the passage “all have sinned and fall short of God’s Glory” is from ST. Paul (c.f. Romans 3:23) and “anyone born of God does not sin” is from 1 John 5:18.

Regards

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Obama Says A Baby Is A Punishment

Obama: “If they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby.”

The following is a literal translation of the Greek text of the Constantinopolitan form, the brackets indicating the words altered or added in the Western liturgical form in present use:

We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."

“So being born again is merely procedural/ceremonial?..”

You still don’t understand the Catholic Church.

Thank you for your explanation....but the scriptures seem to imply it is a two part process.....beggetal, and eventually birth at the resurrection.

Even Our Lord had not yet been born again in [John 3:16] after His baptism. After His resurrection He, was of course referred to as "The First Born". But God called Him His only "begotten" Son while He walked this Earth as a human.

Do you see the difference?

Solemnity of the Most Holy Trinity

157. The solemnity of the Most Holy Trinity is celebrated on the Sunday after Pentecost. With the growth of devotion to the mystery of God in His Unity and Trinity, John XXII extended the feast of the Holy Trinity to the entire Latin Church in 1334. During the middle ages, especially during the carolingian period, devotion to the Blessed Trinity was a highly important feature of private devotion and inspired several liturgical expressions. These events were influential in the development of certain pious exercises.

In the present context, it would not appear appropriate to mention specific pious exercises connected with popular devotion to the Blessed Trinity, "the central mystery of the faith and of the Christian life"¹⁶⁵. It sufficies to recall that every genuine form of popular piety must necessarily refer to God, "the all-powerful Father, His only begotten Son and the Holy Spirit"¹⁶⁶. Such is the mystery of God, as revealed in Christ and through him. Such have been his manifestations in salvation history. The history of salvation "is the history of the revelation of the one true God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, who reconciles and unites to Himself those who have been freed from sin" ¹⁶⁷.

Numerous pious exercises have a Trinitarian character or dimension. Most of them begin with the sign of the cross "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit", the same formula with which the disciples of Jesus are baptized (cf. Mt 28, 19), thereby beginning a life of intimacy with the God, as sons of the Father, brothers of Jesus, and temples of the Holy Spirit. Other pious exercises use formulas similar to those found in the Liturgy of the Hours and begin by giving "Glory to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit". Some pious exercises end with a blessing given in the name of the three divine Persons. Many of the prayers used in these pious exercises follow the typical liturgical form and are addressed to the "Father, through Christ, in the Holy Spirit", and conserve doxological formulas taken from the Liturgy.

158. Worship, as has been said in the first part of this Directory, is the dialogue of God with man through Christ in the Holy Spirit¹⁶⁸. A Trinitarian orientation is therefore an essential element in popular piety. It should be clear to the faithful that all pious exercises in honour of the Blessed Virgin May, and of the Angels and Saints have the Father as their final end, from Whom all thing come and to Whom all things return; the incarnate, dead and resurrected Son is the only mediator (1Tim 2,5) apart from whom access to the Father is impossible (cf. John 14,6); the Holy Spirit is the only source of grace and sanctification. It is important to avoid any concept of "divinity" which is abstract from the three Divine Persons.

159. Together with the little doxology (Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit....) and the great doxology (Glory be to God in the highest), pious exercises addressed directly to the Most Blessed Trinity often include formulas such as the biblical Trisagion (Holy, Holy, Holy) and also its liturgical form (Holy God, Holy Strong One, Holy Immortal One, have mercy on us), especially in the Eastern Churches, in some Western countries as well as among numerous religious orders and congregations.

The liturgical Trisagion is inspired by liturgical hymns and its biblical counterpart. Here mention could be made of the Sanctus used in the celebration of the Mass, the Te Deum, the improperia of Good Friday's veneration of the Cross, all of which are derived from Isaiah 6, 3 and Apocalypses 4, 8. The Trisagion is a pious exercise in which the faithful, united with the Angels, continually glorify God, the Holy, Powerful and Immortal One, while using expressions of praise drawn from Scripture and the Liturgy.

:) sang this in Mass today (recessional)

This is my experience, especially with non-Catholic Christians I’ve met online in chats like Paltalk. This is precisely why it is so dangerous to ignore the authority of the Church. It is exactly what St. Peter warned about in his second epistle (2 Pet 3:16-17).

When one is one’s own Pope, it is all to easy to mistake an evil spirit for the Holy Spirit. This is precisely how strange doctrines enter the Body of Christ. The Magisterium is precisely to guard against such errors. It’s much more difficult to bend an entire body against truth, than it is an individual.

This is perhaps the one thing that drives me craziest. In my exact desire to be charitable to people, to help them, I can see the error so easily propigated by this “go at it alone mentality” that Protestantism delightfully encourages.

We are NOT able to come to God alone; and, as I’ve said previously on another thread, this is exactly what the Church is for: it’s to help us keep on the path to Christ.

Diego1618:

Christ in no sense can be seen as having been born again [John 3:16], which if you go back to John 3:5 is seen as pointing to Christian baptism, i.e. “born of water and spirt” (c.f. John 3:5). The baptism of Jesus is described in all 4 Gospels, each with there own theological perspective and as Pope Benedict notes in Jesus of Nazareth (p.22), all 4 note that CHrist came up from the water and heaven was torn open and the spirit came down upon him. 3 points follow, heaven opening shows Christ communion with his Father [Trinitarian image] and then the sprit coming down we here the Father saying this is my beloved son, etc. indicating who Christ is more than what he is doing. For example, in St. John’s Gospel (c.f. John 1 :29-34), we see John the Baptist identifying CHrist as the “Lamb of God” at Christ’s baptism. As Pope Benedict notes, this is an encounter with the Holy Trinity.

Now, I would encourage you to view Christ as a Divine Person, who was never without a Divine Nature, but through the incarnation, took our human nature in its fullness,but without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Thus, in this sense Christ being baptized points to our Lord identifying himself with humanity and have fallen nature, but hope for God’s Grace. Again, as Pope Benedict notes in Jesus of Nazareth (p. 17), the signficance of Christ’s Baptism could not fully emerge until the Cross and Resurrection and as the Pope points out on p. 18, Christ’s baptism is an acceptance of death for humanity’s sins and the voice of God the Father stating “this is my beloved son over the baptismal waters of the Jordan river is an anticipatory reference to the Resurrection, which as the Pope further notes, is why Jesus uses the word “Baptism” to refer to his death (c.f. Mark 10:38; Luke 12:50).

So to summarize, Catholic doctrine sees through Baptism, we die to old and rise to new life [i.e Death and Resurrection], and thus receive God’s grace and thus have communion with the Most Holy Trinity.

Regards

The Holy Spirit, Gift of God's Love

St. Augustine

There is no gift of God more excellent than this. It alone distinguishes the sons of the eternal kingdom and the sons of eternal perdition. Other gifts, too, are given by the Holy Spirit; but without love they profit nothing. Unless, therefore, the Holy Spirit is so far imparted to each, as to make him one who loves God and his neighbor, he is not removed from the left hand to the right. Nor is the Spirit specially called the Gift, unless on account of love. And he who has not this love, "though he speak with the tongues of men and angels, is sounding brass and a tinkling cymbal; and though he have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and though he have all faith, so that he can remove mountains, he is nothing; and though he bestow all his goods to feed the poor, and though he give his body to be burned, it profiteth him nothing."

How great a good, then, is that without which goods so great bring no one to eternal life! But love or charity itself,--for they are two names for one thing,--if he have it that does not speak with tongues, nor has the gift of prophecy, nor knows all mysteries and all knowledge, nor gives all his goods to the poor, either because he has none to give or because some necessity hinders, nor delivers his body to be burned, if no trial of such a suffering overtakes him, brings that man to the kingdom, so that faith itself is only rendered profitable by love, since faith without love can indeed exist, but cannot profit. And therefore also the Apostle Paul says, "In Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith that worketh by love:" so distinguishing it from that faith by which even "the devils believe and tremble." Love, therefore, which is of God and is God, is specially the Holy Spirit, by whom the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts, by which love the whole Trinity dwells in us. And therefore most rightly is the Holy Spirit, although He is God, called also the gift of God. And by that gift what else can properly be understood except love, which brings to God, and without which any other gift of God whatsoever does not bring to God? . . .

Wherefore, if Holy Scripture proclaims that God is love, and that love is of God, and works this in us that we abide in God and He in us, and that hereby we know this, because He has given us of His Spirit, then the Spirit Himself is God, who is love. Next, if there be among the gifts of God none greater than love, and there is no greater gift of God than the Holy Spirit, what follows more naturally than that He is Himself love, who is called both God and of God? And if the love by which the Father loves the Son, and the Son loves the Father, ineffably demonstrates the communion of both, what is more suitable than that He should be specially called love, who is the Spirit common to both? For this is the sounder thing both to believe and to understand, that the Holy Spirit is not alone love in that Trinity, yet is not specially called love to no purpose.

On the Trinity XV.18.32, 19.37.

[John 3:5-13] 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Were you born of flesh?

Have you changed into a spirit being?

Do you remember how the Lord was able to stand before the disciples, suddenly materializing inside a stone building, behind locked doors? [John 20:19][Luke 24:36]

He had been "Born again"....resurrecting as a spirit. We will also..... at our resurrection....be born of the spirit [I Corinthians 15:50-52]. Notice again what He says to Nicodemus [John 3:3-8] 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: "so is every one that is born of the Spirit".

Our Lord was telling Nicodemus about a total change he would experience upon becoming "born again".....from flesh to spirit at the resurrection.

[1 Peter 1:3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

[1 Peter 1:21-23] Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

[1 John 3:9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Do baptized, fleshly people sin? Yes, unfortunately, they still do.....as they have only been begotten of the spirit, not yet born of the spirit....born again of incorruptible seed.

So did we. Recessional

**I can see the error so easily propigated by this “go at it alone mentality” **

It bugs me too. Sometimes I am near tears because I have used all reason available to me and within my skill of words, and nothing seems to penetrate. Only God know the secret. All we can do is continue to lay out the facts.

Diego1618:

Again, if you believe that Christ is a Divine person, then Christ being “born again/or Born from above” can not be reconciled to what you are saying, that is Christ needed to be born again. Now, if you are a Oneness pentecostal or Jehova’s Witness, then what you are saying is diamaterically opposed to orthodox Christian doctrine and in fact, is objectively not even Christianity.

Regards

[ You still don’t understand the Catholic Church. ]

You still assume to much..