Tests could link skull to 1857 massacre

AP via KSL.com (Salt Lake City) ^ | May 20, 2009 | AP

[Colofornian]

SALT LAKE CITY (AP) -- For decades it sat on a shelf in a brown cardboard box -- a skull pierced in the back with an apparent bullet hole and linked by a typewritten note to a dark and violent chapter in the history of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Found in a pawnshop 27 years ago, the specimen is now in the hands of the Idaho state archaeologist. Ken Reid is supervising tests to determine whether the skull belongs to a victim of the Mountain Meadows massacre of 1857, when 120 men, women and children from an Arkansas-based wagon train were killed by Latter-day Saint settlers in southern Utah.

Descendants of the 17 surviving children from the Baker-Fancher party are anxious for those results.

"I was a little bit shocked when I first heard about it," said Patty Norris of Omaha, Ark., president of Mountain Meadows Descendants, one of three descendant organizations. "At this point we're working on the assumption that it is a victim of the massacre, but all we really know is that they haven't disproven it yet."

The skull's existence became known to descendants, officials of the Church and Reid in February.

Jeff Webb first discovered the skull on the shelves of a Salt Lake City pawnshop in 1982. A note in the box said the skull was from a female "victim of the famed Mountain Meadows massacre."

He lingered over it, his interest fueled by having served a church mission in Arkansas, where the massacre's events had created a legacy of resentment of the Church.

Webb took the skull home -- free of charge -- to Logan, where he ran his own pawnshop, but never offered it for sale. Instead it sat in its box on a food pantry shelf or in storage as the Webbs moved to Arizona, Idaho, and overseas. Often before a move, Webb and his wife would discuss burying the skull in their own backyard, but he says they never felt quite right about leaving it behind.

"I think she is just sort of part of the family," said Jeff Webb, 53, who now lives in Sugar City, Idaho.

Prepping for another move last fall, Jeff Webb asked his 80-year-old father to keep it for him.

Loren Webb, lives in Idaho Falls, Idaho, but spends winters in St. George, Utah, about 35 miles southeast of the massacre site, a lush, rolling valley that was once a popular stopover for California-bound wagon train parties on the Old Spanish Trail.

"We talked about going out there to the massacre site and just burying it," Loren Webb said, adding that he nixed the idea fearing he'd end up in jail.

Instead he called a local church leader, who contacted LDS church headquarters in Salt Lake City.

"My immediate thought was these are sacred remains and they need to be treated in an appropriate ethical and legal manner," Assistant Church Historian Richard Turley said.

Mountains Meadows marks a dark moment in the history of the Church -- one that has often been left out of history books.

On Sept. 11, 1857, the Baker-Fancher party was attacked by area church and militia leaders disguised as a local Indian tribe. After a five-day siege, the Arkansans forged what turned out to be a false truce with a local LDS church leader, laid down their weapons and were slaughtered as they were being led out of the meadow on foot.

The church had historically denied or downplayed its role in the killings, but in 2007 expressed its regret. Today, two monuments in the meadows memorialize the victims and the church is seeking National Historic Landmark status for the site.

The author of a book about the massacre, Turley isn't surprised by the possibility that an artifact from the massacre might surface this way.

"In the 19th century, people routinely took bones when they were lying on the ground as souvenirs," Turley said.

Historical accounts show that after the killings, the bodies of the victims were strewn across the 2,500 acre meadow and left unburied. Then in 1859, U.S. military contingents were sent to bury the dead. Among them was a doctor from Utah's Camp Floyd, who is known to have removed at least two skulls and possibly other bones from the site, Turley said.

It's not known what happened to the doctor's souvenirs and there's no way to know how many other bones or artifacts may have been removed from the massacre site, Turley said.

Reid, the archaeologist, said he has "many reservations" about the skull's origins. Aside from an address inked on its cardboard box, not much is known about who had the skull before Webb's pawnshop discovery. Webb said the pawnshop owner had acquired the skull through an estate sale.

"There's just a big gap between 1857 and 1982," Reid said. "I'm trained to worry about things like that."

According to Loren Webb -- who named the skull Mary and whose grandchild once took it to school for show-and-tell -- an initial evaluation of the skull by an Idaho Falls forensic anthropologist identified it as belonging to a 19th century woman.

Reid is getting a second opinion from a Boise State University scientists. Dr. Margaret Streeter is working to determine the skull's possible origins, race, sex and age. Other tests look for damage from weather and animals, in addition to things like gun shot wounds or other signs of trauma.

Depending on Streeter's findings, DNA testing -- including samples taken from remaining teeth -- could be recommended as the next step, Reid said.

Members of Norris's descendant group are willing to give DNA samples for comparison, as are members of two other descendant organizations, the Mountain Meadows Association and the Mountain Meadows Massacre Foundation.

[packrat35]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear_River_Massacre

[Habibi]

“If modern day descendents can’t sit down and flip burgers as the read through the archives, they are simply immature.”

Good post. I’ve some geezer relatives that can’t stand to purchase a Toyota because of WWII, even though there are hardly any living Japanese that had anything to do with the conflict. I am terribly unpopular when I point out that they don’t believe in “Buy American”. They are, “Don’t buy Japanese” types. Irregardless, they still let me sleep with their daughter when we visit, and raise their grandchildren.

And since when does Free Republic require you to X a box stating you’re mature when you sign up? If they did that we’d have less than half the posts we do now.

[packrat35]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hawk_War_(Utah)

[rustbucket]

I had read that, but I didn’t remember how many children that families often had back then. The monument, which is on the side of a hill overlooking the site, brought that home to me.

There were flowers at the monument apparently placed there by relatives.

[passionfruit]

All of the children over the age of 7 were murdered and many under that age too. There were 17 surviving children, and they were the lucky ones.

Even after all of the adults were killed, they continued to kill some of the children who were begging for their lives, according to the children who survived.

[Colofornian]

It would not surprise me at all that mormons kept bones from the massacre, as they kept everything else from the pioneers. They kept the wagons, livestock, provisions, money and 17 surviving children from the massacre. Children that survived said they saw mormons wearing their parents clothes (and the bodies had been stripped naked and left on the desert). The investigating officer was able to identify a unique and fancy wagon that had been in the train, that was later owned by mormons.

Did these Mormons' bishop ever ask @ temple-recommend checklist time if they tithed on these "confiscated" items from Arkansas?

[passionfruit]

From Captain Carlton's report, the items were auctioned off from the tithing office in Cedar City:

"The property was brought to Cedar City and sold at public auction. It was called in Cedar City, and is so called now by the Facetious Mormons, "property taken at the siege of Sebastopol." The clothing stripped from the corpses, bloody and with bits of flesh upon it, shredded by the bullets from the persons of the poor creatures who wore it, was placed in the cellar of the tithing office (an official building), where it lay about three weeks, when it was brought away by some of the party; but witnesses do not know whether it was sold or given away. It is said the cellar smells of it even to this day.

It is reported that John D. Lee, Haight, and Philip Klingensmith (the latter lives in Cedar City) went to Salt Lake City immediately after the massacre, and counseled with Brigham Young about what should be done with the property. They took with them the ready money they got from the murdered emigrants and offered it to Young. He said he would have nothing to do with it. He told them to divide the cattle and cows among the poor. They had taken some of the cattle to Salt Lake City merchants there. Lee told Brigham that the Indians would not be satisfied if they did not have a share of the cattle. Brigham left it to Lee to make the distribution. One or two of the Mormons did not like it that Lee had this authority, as they say he swindled them out of their share. Lee was the smartest man of the lot.

The wagons, carriages, and rifles, etc., were distributed among the Mormons. Lee has a carriage reported be one of them. The Indians have but few of the rifles.

Much of this seems to be corroborated by a man named Whitelock, a dentist, now at Camp Floyd. Whitelock says he was told by a Mormon, who acknowledged that he was present at the massacre, but who is now in California, "that orders to destroy the emigrants first came from above" (Mormon Leadership) and that a party of armed men under the command of a man named John D. Lee, who was then a bishop in the church, but who has since (as Brigham Young says) been deposed, left the settlements of Beaver City, north of Parowan, Parowan City, and Cedar City on what was called a "secret expedition," and after an absence of a few days returned, bringing back strange wagons, cattle, horses, mules and also household property.

There is legal proof that this property was sold at the official tithing office of the church."

[Sherman Logan]

Which textbooks and why? (Anybody know?)

Considering the fact that it is far and away the worst atrocity ever committed by American whites against other American whites, it had a remarkably low profile until quite recently.

I grew up in Missouri, where considerable time was spent in state history class discussing the Mormon War and other atrocities against the Mormons. The atrocity with the greatest number of victims had 13 or 17 males killed, I forget which.

As far as I remember, there was absolutely no mention of MMM, which realistically turns the Mormon/gentile conflict into one with a great deal of fault on both sides, not the unprovoked persecution of innocent sectarians that was presented in class.

I can absolutely guarantee that if a similar atrocity had been committed by American whites against blacks or Mexican-Americans it would have received a great deal more publicity over the years. MMM doesn't fit into the generally accepted narrative of American history.

[Elsie]

Elsie, I felt you would want to address this comment...

Nothing I could say would change the mindset.

Only the Holy Spirit can break thru this attitude about 'religion'.

[Elsie]

"There's just a big gap between 1857 and 1982," Reid said. "I'm trained to worry about things like that."

Oh??

There is a 'big gap' between what the LDS Organization® says the Book of Abraham of MORMONism says and what Egyptologists have translated the papyrus says as to it's meaning!

WORRY about THAT!

[greyfoxx39]

One could surmise that all the MMM victims have been baptized, confirmed as members of the LDS church and have had their endowments done so that they could all make the choice to continue on after their deaths in the mormon "plan of salvation".    (See, "SALVATION" http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2255508/posts?page=1)   This file is taken from the LDS.org Family Search site.   http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=/eng/search/ancestorsearchresults.asp       Family Group Record

Search Results | Download GEDCOM |   FamilySearch™ Ancestral File v4.19

Husband's Name
	Alexander FANCHER (AFN:1996-1F8)							Pedigree
	Born:			1812		Place:	, Overton, Tennessee
	Died:			11 Sep 1857		Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
	Buried:					Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
	Married:			12 May 1836		Place:	, Coles, Illinois
	Father:		Isaac FANCHER (AFN:ZFZF-CK)					Family
	Mother:		Unknown UNK08(FANCHER) (AFN:1995-ZWT)
Wife's Name
	Eliza INGRAM (AFN:1996-1GG)							Pedigree
	Born:			1825		Place:	, , Illinois
	Died:			11 Sep 1857		Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
	Buried:					Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
	Married:			12 May 1836		Place:	, Coles, Illinois
	Father:
	Mother:
Children
	1.	Sex	Name
		M	Hampton FANCHER (AFN:1996-1HN)					Pedigree
		Born:		1838		Place:	, Coles, Illinois
		Died:		11 Sep 1857		Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
		Buried:				Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
	2.	Sex	Name
		M	William FANCHER (AFN:1996-1JV)					Pedigree
		Born:		1840		Place:	, Coles, Illinois
		Died:		11 Sep 1857		Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
		Buried:				Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
	3.	Sex	Name
		F	Mary FANCHER (AFN:1996-1K3)					Pedigree
		Born:		1841		Place:	, , Missouri
		Died:		11 Sep 1857		Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
		Buried:				Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
	4.	Sex	Name
		M	Thomas FANCHER (AFN:1996-1L9)					Pedigree
		Born:		1843		Place:	, , Missouri
		Died:		11 Sep 1857		Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
		Buried:				Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
	5.	Sex	Name
		F	Martha FRANCHER (AFN:1996-1MH)					Pedigree
		Born:		1846		Place:	, Carrol, Arkansas
		Died:		11 Sep 1857		Place:	Mountain Meadow, , Utah
		Buried:				Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
	6.	Sex	Name
		F	Sarah G. (Twin) FANCHER (AFN:1996-1NP)					Pedigree
		Born:		1849		Place:	, Carrol, Arkansas
		Died:		11 Sep 1857		Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
		Buried:				Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
	7.	Sex	Name
		F	Margaret A. (Twin) FANCHER (AFN:1996-1PW)					Pedigree
		Born:		1849		Place:	, Caroll, Arkansas
		Died:		11 Sep 1857		Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
		Buried:				Place:	Mountain Meadow, Washington, Utah
	8.	Sex	Name
		M	Kit Carson FANCHER (AFN:1996-1Q4)					Pedigree
		Born:		1853		Place:	<, Caroll, Arkansas>
	9.	Sex	Name
		F	Margaret A. FRANCHER (AFN:1W15-GXV)					Pedigree
		Born:		1849		Place:	, Of Carrol, Ark
		Died:		11 Sep 1857		Place:	Mt. Meadows, , Utah
	10.	Sex	Name
		M	Christopher Carson "Kit" FANCHER (AFN:1W15-GZ3)					Pedigree
		Born:		1852		Place:	, Of Carrol, Ark
	11.	Sex	Name
		F	Trefina FANCHER (AFN:1996-1RB)					Pedigree
		Born:		10 Nov 1855		Place:	<, Caroll, Arkansas>
		Died:		30 Apr 1897		Place:	, Carroll, Arkansas
	12.	Sex	Name
		F	Trifinia D. "Annie" FANCHER (AFN:1W15-H08)					Pedigree
		Born:		10 Nov 1855		Place:	, Of Carrol, Ark
		Died:				Place:	, Of Carrol, Ark

---

[passionfruit]

One could also surmise that the murder victims wouldn't choose to join the faith of those that:

1. lied about them to incite the attacks (the false story that they poisoned a well and the meat of a dead steer, that they had boasted of owning the very gun that was used to kill Joseph Smith),

2. Refused to sell them provisions knowing they were heading across the Mojave Desert with 137 people,

3. laid siege against them for days in the desert heat, cutting off access to water,

4. tricked them into surrendering and giving up their weapons, led them out into the open,

5. attacked and killed all but 17 tiny children,

6. stripped the bodies naked and left them to be consumed by wild animals, leaving the parched bones for 2 years until the U. S. Army was sent to bury them,

7. stole everything the pioneers had and distributed them amongst themselves.

8. after the fact, they blamed the entire massacre on the indians. The mormons planned and carried out after bringing the indians into this by lying to them to gain their assistance.

There was nothing in this entire story that would imply that the mormons here were decent, or honest, or men of God, and in no way did they do anything that would cause the victims to aspire to the mormon faith.

[Elsie]

For decades it sat on a shelf in a brown cardboard box -- a skull pierced in the back with an apparent bullet hole and linked by a typewritten note to a dark and violent chapter in the history of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

This is an OBVIOUS attempt by hateful bigots (probably Baptists did it) to discredit the Only True church of Christ!

They no doubt STOLE this skull long ago from a remote graveyard after seeing the date of death on the eroding tombstone; shot a hole in the back and then planted it in that SLC pawnshop some 3 decades ago.

The plotters (some who may have already died) have just been waiting: biding their time; until NOW!

---

Watch the accusations begin to fly!!

[Old Mountain man]

None?

[Old Mountain man]

Glad you forgot about the War of Northern Aggression.

[Old Mountain man]

To all Haun’s Mill deniers.

[Old Mountain man]

Gee, I’ve been through the Temple hundreds of times and never heard that one. You been listening to too much preachin for the pocketbook!

[colorcountry]

Nana - the Mormons did away with that disgusting bit of vengence oath back in the 1920’s

That’s why OMM doesn’t recognize it.

[svcw]

History, history, we don't need no stinking history

(unless it discredits Christians).

[Godzilla]

I'd be interested in hearing what overtures have been made through the decades from the descendents of perpetrators to the descendents of the victims.

They were probably proxy baptized.