I never realized there were so many children killed.
Posted on 05/20/2009 7:03:27 PM PDT by Colofornian
SALT LAKE CITY (AP) -- For decades it sat on a shelf in a brown cardboard box -- a skull pierced in the back with an apparent bullet hole and linked by a typewritten note to a dark and violent chapter in the history of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Found in a pawnshop 27 years ago, the specimen is now in the hands of the Idaho state archaeologist. Ken Reid is supervising tests to determine whether the skull belongs to a victim of the Mountain Meadows massacre of 1857, when 120 men, women and children from an Arkansas-based wagon train were killed by Latter-day Saint settlers in southern Utah.
Descendants of the 17 surviving children from the Baker-Fancher party are anxious for those results.
"I was a little bit shocked when I first heard about it," said Patty Norris of Omaha, Ark., president of Mountain Meadows Descendants, one of three descendant organizations. "At this point we're working on the assumption that it is a victim of the massacre, but all we really know is that they haven't disproven it yet."
The skull's existence became known to descendants, officials of the Church and Reid in February.
Jeff Webb first discovered the skull on the shelves of a Salt Lake City pawnshop in 1982. A note in the box said the skull was from a female "victim of the famed Mountain Meadows massacre."
He lingered over it, his interest fueled by having served a church mission in Arkansas, where the massacre's events had created a legacy of resentment of the Church.
Webb took the skull home -- free of charge -- to Logan, where he ran his own pawnshop, but never offered it for sale. Instead it sat in its box on a food pantry shelf or in storage as the Webbs moved to Arizona, Idaho, and overseas. Often before a move, Webb and his wife would discuss burying the skull in their own backyard, but he says they never felt quite right about leaving it behind.
"I think she is just sort of part of the family," said Jeff Webb, 53, who now lives in Sugar City, Idaho.
Prepping for another move last fall, Jeff Webb asked his 80-year-old father to keep it for him.
Loren Webb, lives in Idaho Falls, Idaho, but spends winters in St. George, Utah, about 35 miles southeast of the massacre site, a lush, rolling valley that was once a popular stopover for California-bound wagon train parties on the Old Spanish Trail.
"We talked about going out there to the massacre site and just burying it," Loren Webb said, adding that he nixed the idea fearing he'd end up in jail.
Instead he called a local church leader, who contacted LDS church headquarters in Salt Lake City.
"My immediate thought was these are sacred remains and they need to be treated in an appropriate ethical and legal manner," Assistant Church Historian Richard Turley said.
Mountains Meadows marks a dark moment in the history of the Church -- one that has often been left out of history books.
On Sept. 11, 1857, the Baker-Fancher party was attacked by area church and militia leaders disguised as a local Indian tribe. After a five-day siege, the Arkansans forged what turned out to be a false truce with a local LDS church leader, laid down their weapons and were slaughtered as they were being led out of the meadow on foot.
The church had historically denied or downplayed its role in the killings, but in 2007 expressed its regret. Today, two monuments in the meadows memorialize the victims and the church is seeking National Historic Landmark status for the site.
The author of a book about the massacre, Turley isn't surprised by the possibility that an artifact from the massacre might surface this way.
"In the 19th century, people routinely took bones when they were lying on the ground as souvenirs," Turley said.
Historical accounts show that after the killings, the bodies of the victims were strewn across the 2,500 acre meadow and left unburied. Then in 1859, U.S. military contingents were sent to bury the dead. Among them was a doctor from Utah's Camp Floyd, who is known to have removed at least two skulls and possibly other bones from the site, Turley said.
It's not known what happened to the doctor's souvenirs and there's no way to know how many other bones or artifacts may have been removed from the massacre site, Turley said.
Reid, the archaeologist, said he has "many reservations" about the skull's origins. Aside from an address inked on its cardboard box, not much is known about who had the skull before Webb's pawnshop discovery. Webb said the pawnshop owner had acquired the skull through an estate sale.
"There's just a big gap between 1857 and 1982," Reid said. "I'm trained to worry about things like that."
According to Loren Webb -- who named the skull Mary and whose grandchild once took it to school for show-and-tell -- an initial evaluation of the skull by an Idaho Falls forensic anthropologist identified it as belonging to a 19th century woman.
Reid is getting a second opinion from a Boise State University scientists. Dr. Margaret Streeter is working to determine the skull's possible origins, race, sex and age. Other tests look for damage from weather and animals, in addition to things like gun shot wounds or other signs of trauma.
Depending on Streeter's findings, DNA testing -- including samples taken from remaining teeth -- could be recommended as the next step, Reid said.
Members of Norris's descendant group are willing to give DNA samples for comparison, as are members of two other descendant organizations, the Mountain Meadows Association and the Mountain Meadows Massacre Foundation.
And of course, Christian leaders were occasionally culpable in the slaughter of Native Americans. For example, I believe the massacre @ Sand Creek (1864) was led by a Methodist minister. But that was an Army attack...a bit distinct from a group of religious people banding together under a single sect umbrella -- and then attacking & slaughtering 120+ men, women & children.
Lee was a liar and gave ever-changing accounts of the slaughter for the rest of his life. He even claimed that he was the peacemaker during the whole process and that he tried to stop it, when in fact he was one of the instigators. His word cannot be taken for scrap because he gave so many discordant accounts.
However, two of the most recent “authoritative” books on the massacre corroborate that the bodies were placed in shallow graves after being gathered and looted. They gather this information from journals (several different primary sources), etc. of those who buried the dead—many of whom did not participate in the murders.
Again, I’m not apologizing for the event. I’m just trying to stick to the facts as gathered by truth-seeking researchers. Hell, Bagley’s book is certainly not pro-Mormon. One account as given by Lee can be refuted by another that he said he helped bury the bodies, and his testimony hardly stands as the bastion of truth whilst trying to cover his tracks.
The crusdades were a just cause. Thousands died on both sides, not millions.
The Shoshone Indians were on the warpath because the Mormons had murdered a 12 year Indian boy who supposedly stole a horse. The young man, a chief's son, was later exonerated, but the damage was done.
The Mormons spotted a large gathering of Shoshones, mostly women and children, led the army to the site of the massacre (by none other than Porter Rockwell), and picked off Indians fleeing the scene in an attempt to escape the slaughter.
It is ludicrous to attempt to place all of the blame for the tragedy on the army.
Nobody knows how many people were murdered in the massacre, but most estimates place about 500 Indians at the scene and virtually everyone agrees that very few survived.
His word cannot be taken for scrap because he gave so many discordant accounts.
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How do you feel about Joey Smith and his “vision” ??? “His word cannot be taken for scrap because he gave so many discordant accounts.”
I'm convinced Lee was covering for Brigham Young. In those days, at that time, especially in the days leading up to the Mormon War of 1857, Utah was under martial law imposed by Young and enforced by the Mormon Militia. Nobody did anything of importance or consequence, such as robbing a large wagon train and slaughtering its members, without the knowledge and approval of the Moses of the Mormons.
Lee also had many reasons to keep his mouth shut and protect the Prophet -- not the least of which was the fear of blood atonement against Lee's family members.
That said, it is my understanding Lee remained silent until his conviction, and then only gave the one account, Confessions, in the eight or so month time of his appeal before his execution.
I was just reading about the massacre here: http://www.mtn-meadows-assoc.com/ and here: http://mountainmeadowsmassacre.com/ , but the best information, including articles from various newspapers of the time, and the account of the Army officer that was sent to investigate it were found here: http://www.legendsofamerica.com/ut-mountainmeadowshistoricaccounts.html
The report of J. H. Carleton, Brevet Major, United States Army, Captain, First Dragoons, May 25, 1859
is here, and details the events very well: http://www.legendsofamerica.com/ut-mountainmeadowshistoricaccounts7.html#Special%20Report%20Of%20The%20Mountain%20Meadow%20Massacre
The Army only found less than half the remains when they were sent in 1859 to investigate. They buried what they found and placed a large stone cairn over it, and a large wooden cross. The mormons tore down the cairn and the cross. They rebuilt the cairn later, but refused to put up a cross, because Mormons don’t believe in the cross.
Family members of the victims have been requesting for years that the cross be replaced, as the victims were Christians, but the mormons feel led to impose their own beliefs on the victims, even after 150 years.
It would not surprise me at all that mormons kept bones from the massacre, as they kept everything else from the pioneers. They kept the wagons, livestock, provisions, money and 17 surviving children from the massacre. Children that survived said they saw mormons wearing their parents clothes (and the bodies had been stripped naked and left on the desert). The investigating officer was able to identify a unique and fancy wagon that had been in the train, that was later owned by mormons.
Ill agree with that, as long as people admit it happened
I looked through your links and found the only mention of Mormon involvement was in one article written by the anti-Mormon Bagley. I would be interested in seeing it corroborated in more than one source. Other articles mention that the Mormons were grateful, but fail to mention the sniping Mormons picking off escapees. Even the Shoshone memorial site doesn’t mention this.
Connor was just as anti-Mormon as he was anti-indian. I hardly believe he was doing this to protect the Mormon interests over the orders he had to clear the overland route of the Oregon trail.
Are you referring to the Nine Different Versions of the First Vision, or to the Tenth Version contained in Mark Hofmann's Salamander Letter?
Personally, I believe in Smith's First Vision account as much as I believe in his translation of the Book of Abraham, Kinderhook Plates, and Book of Mormon Plates.
I don’t disagree with anything you’ve posted. I just finished Massacre at Mountain Meadows by Walker, Turley, and Leonard. Previously I had read Will Bagley’s Blood of the Prophets. The information in these books isn’t easy on the Mormons, even though the Walker book is by Mormons. The interesting thing about their book is the extensive use of primary sources (first-hand accounts). It was published by Oxford press and peer-reviewed before publication.
About 140 pages of the 380 pages in the book are dedicated to notes, citations, and sources. I thought it was an interesting read and seemed to document and present its sources as precisely as possible. It’s much better than accounts written by family members 150 years after the incident, in my opinion.
I never realized there were so many children killed.
I have no idea as to your religious persuasion, nor do I care. I’m sure if you presented your religion honestly, I could pick through it and find inconsistencies, intrigues, and doctrines that defy logic or seem mystic in some manner. No religion, nor its adherents, have claim to absolute historical piety.
My vote is to let God decide. Murderers are murderers. Sin is sin. God is judge and I can only do my best to stay on His path. If others go astray, I am responsible for nothing but helping them find the way. In the end, they choose their fate. Neither you nor I get to judge them or choose their path for them, even if we believe their path to be as silly as seeing the Virgin Mary on the back of a freeway sign, or on a piece of morning toast.
The links I provided contained the actual 1859 investigation report, and the accounts from surviving children who remembered the massacre.
There were a lot less people on the Earth back then.
even if we believe their path to be as silly as seeing the Virgin Mary on the back of a freeway sign, or on a piece of morning toast.
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Elsie, I felt you would want to address this comment...
Hmmmmmmmmm
Whatever was that # 35 ???
never realized there were so many children killed.
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All the children over the age of 7 were murdered...
17 tiny children were kidnapped...
I’m sorry, was that Elsie’s piece of toast for sale on Ebay?
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