Kirby: Whether by Mormons or not, we're all products of 'forced' religion

The Salt Lake Tribune ^ | May 16, 2009 | Robert Kirby

[Colofornian]

If I can believe all the "check is in the mail" response I got to last week's column offering excommunication for the dead for those who are unhappy that Mormons baptized their dead relatives, I am well on my way to becoming a millionaire.

E-mail orders poured in from people anxious to ensure that their ancestors didn't become the Mormon undead through proxy baptism.

My grandfather's name is Ed. Please commit adultery in your heart for him with Dolly Parton.

Sweet. I want a franchise when you're up and running. What about stock?

You got competition, dude. I'll do the same thing for a hundred bucks.

Wow. Who knew there was so much money to be made in undoing the service of the Lord?

But my favorite responses were from the peeved; those who insisted their ancestors would never become Mormons because they had all been staunch [pick one] while alive.

Reader: "What Mormons are doing is an insult to my ancestors. My people have always been Catholic."

Her ancestors [hollering from the other side]: "No we haven't. We were pagans until the %*$&@ Romans came."

Say what you want about missionaries, the greatest conversion tool in the history of the world has been the sword. Baptism for the Dead is nothing compared to Baptism or Be Dead.

As nice as it is to think about freedom of choice in religion, we're all trickle-down products of some sort of "forced" religion.

Most people who have a particular faith got at least a semblance of it from their parents, who got it from their ancestors, who got it from whatever culture overran and dominated theirs. Those who didn't convert at the point of a sword did so through gradual assimilation and social pressure.

Islam and Christianity are the two biggest culprits. Simple benevolence isn't what made them the largest two religions on the planet today. They spread their faith through conquest and then enforcement.

Most Latinos and American Indians wouldn't be Christian today had it not been forced on them. And not only would most blacks in America not be Christian, they wouldn't even be in America.

The same is true of me. My ancestors converted to Mormonism from Anglicanism in merry old England. Before that, we were Catholic (if we knew what was good for us), and before that we probably painted ourselves blue and danced naked around a maypole.

Not only do people change religions, the religions themselves change. More than 150 years later, I'm still Mormon, but it would probably drive my great-grandfather nuts that I only have one wife and I don't live on a collective. What he believed in back then isn't even on the program today.

Go back far enough and your ancestors would be shaking their heads at what you became. All that faith and tradition and you didn't turn out anything like you were supposed to. Here's the kicker: Neither will your descendants.

[Colofornian]

From the column: ...it would probably drive my great-grandfather nuts that I only have one wife and I don't live on a collective. What he believed in back then isn't even on the program today.

Sure it is. Lds apostle Bruce McConkie taught in our lifetime that the Mormon jesus will re-institute polygamy when he returns. (He even put it in a book only an "authoritative" Mormon leader would dare call, "Mormon Doctrine!")

From the column: ...the greatest conversion tool in the history of the world has been the sword...we're all trickle-down products of some sort of "forced" religion...Islam and Christianity are the two biggest culprits. Simple benevolence isn't what made them the largest two religions on the planet today. They spread their faith through conquest and then enforcement...And not only would most blacks in America not be Christian, they wouldn't even be in America.

(Regarding this last statement, never mind that Africa is the fastest-growing continent on behalf of Christianity! And perhaps with the exception of South Africa, it wasn't all won or mostly nabbed or even captured via a large swath at the edge of a sword.)

The statement of we're all trickle-down products of some sort of "forced" religion totally ignores the missionary efforts of those like St. Patrick and others who emerged from isolated monasteries that followed in Patrick's ensuing waves in the following centuries...these monks carried no "sword."

Patrick himself was a servant who returned to the Irish peoples to win them over.

This Mormon columnist also totally disregards other great missionary movements from the earliest apostles down into 18th century William Carey (India), 19th century Hudson Taylor (China) and John Mott (who held 21 missionary conferences in India, China, Japan, and Korea) -- coupled with the waves of missionaries who followed them!

The fact that Japan is still so unChristian shows that forced conversion didn't accompany every war victory.

But this is what happens when you embrace so ludicrous of a practice as effectual corpse-dunking. When you can't stand the light being directed to necro-baptism, a practice of spiritual identity theft, you misdirect it and accuse everybody else of something worse -- that nobody has escaped being a product of trickle-down "forced religion."

[arthurus]

To be upset over Mormon baptism of dead relatives, one would have to belive in the efficacy of that baptism, i.e. one would have to believe that LDS is the True Church having the True Faith, in which case then why would one not want one's relatives to be so baptised? Why would one not study and join LDS?

The same argument goes for Jews who fear the Christians who support Israel. Those Jews believe the Christians only support Israel because they think that all the Jews will be converted to Christianity in the by-and-by and the Jews don't want to be converted. To feel that resentment implies that they believe at some level that Christianity is the True Religion, so why are they still Jews?

[Elsie]

What he believed in back then isn’t even on the program today.

Why not?

GOD did not tell ANY of the Living Prophets® to change the way they were living!

Just witness the TRUE Mormons : the FLDS bunch!

[Elsie]

To be upset over Mormon baptism of dead relatives, one would have to belive in the efficacy of that baptism, i.e. one would have to believe that LDS is the True Church having the True Faith, in which case then why would one not want one's relatives to be so baptised?

Not really...

You've left out all KINDs of ideas with this only one complaint.

The mere audacity of MORMONism to to use recycled and reformed Masonic rituals and call them "SACRED" is bad enough; but when just one verse in the NT is so BADLY parsed that LDS Headquarters can get millions to believe the way THEY claim it means about helping the 'dead' when so MANY bible verses PLAINLY state that once you die; no mulligans.

the JUDGEMENT is what follows - not some really faithful Mormon getting wet for some long (or short) dead person.

[mamelukesabre]

I dont get it.

Let’s say I’m a devout catholic and I believe the mormon religion to be a false religion(its catholics that seem ot be the most vocal about this). A lie, in otherwords. If a bunch of mormons decide to baptize my dead catholic relative by proxy, there’s no reason for me to be upset by that. If I truly believe that mormonism is false, then that baptism is meaningless. And I would only laugh at the silly mormons wasting their time.

I don’t get upset if someone told me an african witch doctor made a doll in my likeness and shoved pins into it and cursed it. I also don’t get upset if some religion decides to baptize me by proxy. Why should I care?

[Elsie]

1 Corinthians 15:12-31
 12.  But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
 13.  If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
 14.  And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.
 15.  More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised.
 16.  For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either.
 17.  And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
 18.  Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost.
 19.  If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
 20.  But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
 21.  For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
 22.  For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
 23.  But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
 24.  Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
 25.  For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
 26.  The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
 27.  For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
 28.  When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
 29.  Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?
 30.  And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour?
 

---

No requirement here; but a wondering of WHY some folks 'get baptised for the dead'.

[Pallas]

I’m with you. I’ll just add that I’m convinced there are a lot of folks in the world who have a need to be upset all the time.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

To feel that resentment implies that they believe at some level that Christianity is the True Religion, so why are they still Jews?

What a bunch of hogwash. Go take a shower.

[count-your-change]

Irrelevant drivel tarted up as justification for an unscriptural practice.

[greyfoxx39]

But this is what happens when you embrace so ludicrous of a practice as effectual corpse-dunking. When you can't stand the light being directed to necro-baptism, a practice of spiritual identity theft, you misdirect it and accuse everybody else of something worse -- that nobody has escaped being a product of trickle-down "forced religion."

Just what I was thinking while reading the article...Kirby, while making his money by taking shots at the mormon religion, reverts to the role of mormon apologist when things are getting hot over the dead dunking.

The typical LDS response...."Well, __________(insert name here) did it! Or worse!"....even when the source has to be stretched and spun to the breaking point to try and buttress the argument.

[Safrguns]

btt

[LetMarch]

That may be your experience, and many others, but it has not been mine!

I was begotten by His word: “Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of His creature.”(James 1:18)

And: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to His abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.” (1 Peter 1:3)

Also: “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.” (1 Peter 1:23)

I learned: “To as many as received Him, to them gave He the power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name.” (John 1:12)

“I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.” (Romans 1:16)

“Being confident of this very thing, that He who hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.” (Philippians 1:6)

Let me say this you and I cannot do any thing about the past, but we can do something about the present. Just remember, no decision is a decision!

“God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world might be saved.” (John 3:17)

“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.” Romans 10:9-10)

“For whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” (Romans 10:13)

[narses]

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Obama Says A Baby Is A Punishment

Obama: “If they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby.”

[Tennessee Nana]

Woodruff claims <100 dead white guys came to him and complained thgat the “temple work” AKA dead dunking had not been done for them...

Alrighty then...

My ancestors are rolling in their graves...

Sure sign they want the so called “temple work” done on their unwilling behalves to be recanted, or something...

[Graybeard58]

I’m convinced there are a lot of folks in the world who have a need to be upset all the time.

That's upsetting.

[Safrguns]

There is a basic inherent knowledge of God present in all men.
This is not religion.
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

What man does with that knowledge becomes his “faith”.

his attempt to conform others to his way of thinking, be it right or wrong, through traditions and ceremonial practice is what we call religion.

Jesus Himself had some pretty ugly things to say about religion... which is nothing more than what man “thinks” God expects of him.

The truth is not “forced” on anyone... it’s evident.
I can identify to some extent with the sentiment about our being products of cultural influence... but make no mistake. If our knowledge of God is “forced” onto us by anyone, it is forced onto us by Him. Why? so that we will make that choice to seek Him out, or reject Him... so don’t blame it on man.

[Elsie]

If our knowledge of God is “forced” onto us by anyone, it is forced onto us by Him. Why? so that we will make that choice to seek Him out, or reject Him...

Amen!

[arthurus]

So, if it is all BS, then why are people so worried about LDS "baptising" their dead relatives? If it is false, doesn't accomplish anything, etc., then why all the fuss? I am Catholic and make no comments at all on Mormonism, just the observation about people who get all excited because Moromons are "baptising" dead people. If it makes you nervous then it must be because you think it might be True Baptism and if it is True Baptism then you, somewhere in your psyche worry that you are going to hell because you are not getting that True Baptism. If it is mumbo-jumbo, what is there to make you nervous? The whole anti-Mormon schtick shows that people are too comfortable and don't have anything to worry about so they stretch way out into ubersilliness to worry about Mormons. Mormons don't eat non-Mormon babies or chant weird things on my lawn. They don't affect me or my dead relatives whatever rites they do on behalf of me or my dead relatives or anything else.

[Utah Binger]

Kirby has been enjoying his slight “Mormon Teasing” and getting away with it for at least twenty years. On occasion we communicate. Last week we corresponded regarding the Grand Canyon. He may possibly be stopping in here in the next two weeks.

I am going to discuss this topic with him if I get the chance. Additionally I want to make certain to communicate that the reason for our ancestors coming to Utah was a “Manifest Destiny” type of thing where all the free land and homesteading was truly the driving factor. The religion and the dogma was never necessarily a driving force. I do believe that missionaries went to the Scandinavian and British missions for two reasons. Recruit new land owners and plural marriage of their daughters.

Just my opinion.

[delacoert]

And I'd like to add that the most irritating people are always whining about how everyone around them is so... irritable. Go figure.