Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Hugh Hewitt Redefines Mormonism for Mitt Romney
Apologetics Index ^ | May 22, 2007 (updated Nov. 11, 2008) | Kurt Van Gorden

Posted on 04/22/2009 12:10:00 PM PDT by Colofornian

Hugh Hewitt, a political pundit radio personality, wants the Mormon presidential election runner Mitt Romney in the Whitehouse—very badly. He casts his pre-election vote in writing A Mormon in the Whitehouse? (Regnery, 2007). In defense of Romney, Hewitt also defends Mormonism better than some Latter-day Saints (LDS). This is strange for a Presbyterian, as what Hewitt claims for himself. It is possible and logically consistent that Hewitt could defend Romney as a republican without defending Mormonism, but he chooses otherwise. The reason that I find this strange is that Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, claimed that God appeared to him and told him that Hugh’s church, Presbyterianism, is not true. God’s official statement on Presbyterians is found in Mormon scripture. To remain faithful to the prophet Joseph Smith, Romney cannot believe other that what Joseph Smith wrote in his scripture, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true” (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith—History 1:20).

Is Hewitt slipping in his faith? Or is he just plain ignorant that real Mormonism condemns his faith by name? This anti-Presbyterian sentiment (hence, anti-Hewitt’s chosen faith) is recorded where Joseph Smith had a vision of God the Father (as a male being) and Jesus Christ in the spring of 1820. Smith asked God which Protestant denomination was true—the Methodists, Presbyterians, or Baptists. Smith’s vision, as found in LDS scripture, states that these three denominations alone were in Palmyra, New York (1:9). Smith then queried, “Who of all these parties is right; or, are they all wrong together?” (1:10). Clearly Joseph Smith wanted to know if Presbyterianism (Hugh Hewitt’s faith) was “right” or “wrong.” He was answered by a personal appearance of God the Father and Jesus Christ in New York, where Jesus directly told him, “join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: ‘they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof’” (1:19).

Hugh is in big trouble with Jesus! To be most like his friend Mitt Romney, he needs to repent of his “wrong” Presbyterianism (since Jesus said so!) and repent of his creeds (beliefs) that are so abominable to Jesus, and repent of his corrupt faith. Of the three denominations, Smith singled out the Presbyterians as specifically “not true.” Hewitt needs to get right with the Jesus found in Mormon scripture. Mormon scripture is clearly “anti-Presbyterian.” Yet in the strangest twist of Hugh’s logic, he labels anyone an “anti-Mormon” in his book who has the same opinion of Mormonism as what Joseph Smith did of Presbyterians, but nowhere in his book did he call Smith (or Romney) an anti-Presbyterian.

Here is an example of how Hewitt defended Mormonism from his May 4, 2007 radio program:

Caller Greg: “The question I have is, I know very little about Mormonism, and my question falls into the cult or denomination thing. I think, was it Pastore, a columnist with Townhall, wrote an article a couple of weeks ago? It’s about the sum total of what I know about it.”

Hewitt: “I would encourage you to read my book, which of course is not a surprise to you, it’s available at Amazon dot com. I reject the cult title. I believe cult has about it an element of coercion, which is simply not applicable to the Mormons and it is a sect.”

Caller Greg: “Do you think”…[Greg was obviously drowned out and cut off the air by Hewitt.]

Hewitt: “I just don’t believe that you should call…. Cult carries with it this wheezing of an organ in the background and the idea of chains in the basement and the Branch Davidian and James Jones and I think it is inappropriate for conversation. And when I see Frank next, I’m going to argue that point with him. Cause, I just don’t think…if…if…and I do know where it comes from…Walter Martin wrote the Kingdom of the Cults, but Walter Martin blames that Hinduism is a cult, that Islam is a cult, I don’t think that he calls the Catholic Church a cult, but his definition is expansive. In the modern vernacular it means sinister and the Mormons aren’t just simply not sinister. Hey, Greg, thanks.”

There are problems with Hewitt’s definition of cult. Hewitt does not distinguish between the scholarly definitions of cult from different fields of study, namely psychological, sociological, and theological. He first defined cult psychologically, which under certain circumstances is correct. Some cults use coercion on their members. He failed to tell his audience that this is the psychological definition and that there are other equally legitimate definitions in other fields of study.

To separate Mormonism from his “coercion cult” definition, he then tries to separate Mormonism from coercion. Had Hugh watched the PBS special, The Mormons, that aired just three days earlier (April 30 and May 1), he would have seen how Mormonism uses coercion and psychological pressure on its members. I would suggest that he view The Mormons online The Mormons (http://www.pbs.org/mormons/view) and pay special attention to the section on the excommunication of the Mormon intellectuals, many of whom were Brigham Young University educated, but when they intellectually differed with their church, then they were humiliated through excommunication. Also pay attention to the section about the pressure within Mormonism for perfection that gives LDS women a higher than national average of suicide and anti-depressant drug usage.

I don’t know how Hewitt missed these things, but a scant Internet research would have shown him a much different story:

Ken Ponder, Ph.D, “MORMON WOMEN, PROZAC® and THERAPY, Mormon Women, Prozac and Therapy Julie Cart, "Study Finds Utah Leads Nation in Antidepressant Use," Los Angeles Times, 20 February 2002, A6.
Degn, L. Yeates, E. Greenwell, B. Fiddler, L. “Mormon women and depression,” Sunstone magazine
Hilton, Sterling C, et al. 2002. Suicide Rates and Religious Commitment in Young Adult Males in Utah. American Journal of Epidemiology. Vol. 155, No. 5: 413-19. Suicide Rates and Religious Commitment in Young Adult Males in Utah
Even a pro-Mormon BYU study admits that Mormon women use more anti-depressants and commit suidide more than the national average — http://www.usatoday. com/news/health/2004-04-02-mormon-depression_x.htm [Link no longer active]

Contrary to what Hewitt said, coersion, in fact, applies to Mormonism at several levels, therefore it indeed fits within his first description of a cult.

Hewitt’s next foible was to create a self-styled definition that is not found anywhere, “Cult carries with it this wheezing of an organ in the background and the idea of chains in the basement and the Branch Davidian and James Jones and I think it is inappropriate for conversation.” From where did he get this? This is not what most people think when they hear the word cult. Hugh most likely means “Jim Jones,” with apologies to all of the “James Jones” existing elsewhere. There is no question that the Branch Davidians and Jim Jones (the People’s Temple) were cults, but what made them so? Did they have organs or chains in basements? Neither one did, but perhaps Hugh was thinking of the famous organ at the Mormon Tabernacle in Salt Lake City.

It appears that what Hugh was attempting was, again, a psychological or sociological definition of cult. I would suggest more sound and scholarly definitions of a cult from qualified writers who list Mormonism as a cult like sociologist Ronald Enroth, Ph.D. (Evangelizing the Cults, 1990), theologians Alan Gomes, Ph.D. (Unmasking the Cults, 1998); Drs. Nichols, Mather, and Schmidt (Encyclopedic Dictionary of Cults, Sects, and World Religions, 2007); and a host of others, including some from Hewitt’s reformed Protestant background, like Dr. Jan K. Van Baalan (Chaos of the Cults, 1938; Gist of the Cults, 1944), Dr. Anthony Hoekema (Four Major Cults, 1963; Mormonism, 1973), Dr. Ravi Zacharias (Kingdom of the Cults, general editor, 2006), and Josh McDowell and Don Stewart (The Deceivers, 1992).

Hewitt stated, “I do know where it comes from.” This I doubt, after hearing his answer. The term cult was first used of Mormonism in 1898. Hewitt continued, “Walter Martin wrote the Kingdom of the Cults, but Walter Martin blames that Hinduism is a cult, that Islam is a cult, I don’t think that he calls the Catholic Church a cult, but his definition is expansive.” Since I began working with Walter Martin in 1976 and I have continuously been on the staff of researchers and editors for his works since then, I think that I am better positioned than Hewitt to say what Walter Martin taught.

Hewitt is absolutely wrong. Martin did not state that Hinduism and Islam are cults. Hugh owes Christians an apology for his careless denigration of Martin and his works. Beginning in 1985, Martin included several chapters on world religions in his best-selling Kingdom of the Cults, but he always made clear distinctions between cults and world religions. What Hewitt claims to “know” is a fabrication.

Hewitt’s final statement, “In the modern vernacular it means sinister and the Mormons aren’t just simply not sinister.” This has a twofold problem. It does not define the word cults, but perhaps it describes what some cults do. I challenge Hewitt to find any scholarly work that uses sinister and cult interchangeably as mutually definitional terms. A good theological definition of a cult is “a group of people basing their beliefs upon the worldview of an isolated leadership, which always denies the central doctrines of the Christianity as found in the Bible” (Josh McDowell, The Deceivers, 1992, 15). Mormonism, as what McDowell includes in his book, fits that description with Smith isolating himself from “apostate” Christianity and creating a worldview in opposition to biblical Christianity that contains gods, goddesses, populated worlds, spirit children, and the progression of mankind toward godhood.

The second part of Hewitt’s statement, that Mormons are not sinister, is debatable. Mormons are quite often sinister, in spite of what Hewitt claims. We could talk about such sinister things as the Mountain Meadows massacre, or the numerous scandals through the ages, which is why the Wall Street Journal once stated that Utah is the securities fraud capital of the United States (WSJ, 2/25/1974 and Utah Holiday Magazine, October, 1990), but that aside, I think that Hugh contradicts himself here since he admits that the Mormon Olympic scandal, which was an international embarrassment to the Mormon Church, was straightened out by none other than his wonderful friend, Mitt Romney. How can he say on one hand that Mormons are not sinister and on the other hand state that Mormons were caught in a bribery scandal with the International Olympic Committee that Mitt Romney had to straighten out? Queer, isn’t it? The Mormons even fit Hugh’s last definition of a cult with their sinister actions, which is why Romney had to rescue their reputation.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Mainline Protestant; Other Christian; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: antimormonthread; hewitt; lds; mormon; presbyterian; romney; romneytruthfile
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 881-900901-920921-940 ... 1,001-1,020 next last
To: reaganaut

Joseph Smith’s Bar

In Nauvoo Joseph Smith sold liquor. The following ordinance

472


473

relating to this matter was passed in 1843, Joseph Smith being mayor of Nauvoo at the time:

Ordinance on the Personal Sale of Liquors.

Section 1. Be it ordained by the City Council of Nauvoo, that the Mayor of the city be and is hereby authorized to sell or give spirits of any quantity as he in his wisdom shall judge to be for the health and comfort or convenience of such travelers or other persons as shall visit his house from time to time.
Passed December 12, 1843.
Joseph Smith, Mayor.

Willard Richards, Recorder. (History of the Church, vol. 6, p.111).

Joseph Smith’s own son related the following:

About 1842, a new and larger house was built for us ... and a sign was put out giving it the dignified name of “The Nauvoo Mansion” ...Mother was to be installed as landlady, and soon made a trip to Saint Louis....

When she returned Mother found installed in the keeping-room of the hotel—that is to say, the main room where the guests assembled and where they were received upon arrival—a bar, with counter, shelves, bottles, glasses and other paraphernalia customary for a fully-equipped tavern bar, and Porter Rockwell in charge as tender.

She was very much surprised and disturbed over this arrangement,... “Joseph,” she asked, “What is the meaning of that bar in this house? ... How does it look,” she asked, “for the spiritual head of a religious body to be keeping a hotel in which is a room fitted out as a liquor-selling establishment?”

He reminded her that all taverns had their bars at which liquor was sold or dispensed....

Mother’s reply came emphatically clear, though uttered quietly: “Well, Joseph,... I will take my children and go across to the old house and stay there, for I will not have them raised up under such conditions as this arrangement imposes upon us, nor have them mingle with the kind of men who frequent such a place. You are at liberty to make your choice; either that bar goes out of the house, or we will!”

It did not take Father long to make the choice, for he replied immediately, “Very well, Emma; I will have it removed at once”—and he did (The Saints’ Herald, January 22, 1935, p.110).

Oliver Boardman Huntington recorded the following incident in his journal:

473


474

Robert Thompson was a faithful just clerk for Joseph Smith the Prophet in Nauvoo and had been in his office steady near or quite 2 years. Joseph said to brother Thompson one day. “Robert I want you to go and get on a buss [bust?] go and get drunk and have a good spree, If you don’t you will die.”

Robert did not do it. He was very pious exemplary man and never guilty of such an impropriety as he thought that to be. In less than 2 weeks he was dead and buried (Journal of Oliver B. Huntington, typed copy at Utah State Historical Society, vol. 2, p.166).

(Jerald and Sandra Tanner, The Changing World of Mormonism The Word of Wisdom, Chapter 18, Pp 472-449)


901 posted on 04/29/2009 9:26:59 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 899 | View Replies]

To: reaganaut

Brigham Young’s Distillery

Brigham Young spoke a great deal about the Word of Wisdom, but he seemed to have a difficult struggle applying it to his own life. According to Hosea Stout’s diary (On The Mormon Frontier, vol. 1, p.75). Brigham Young declared on September 27, 1845: “... I am and ever intend to be the Master of my passions ... some may say that I am in the habits of taking snuff and tea yet I am no slave to these passions and can leave these off if they make my brother affronted....” In 1854 Brigham Young drank coffee on a regular basis (see Mormonism—Shadow or Reality? p.408). On April 7, 1867, Brigham Young acknowledged in the Tabernacle that he had chewed tobacco for many years: “... it is not my privilege to drink liquor, neither is it my privilege to eat tobacco. Well, bro. Brigham, have you not done it? Yes, for many years, but I ceased its habitual practice. I used it for toothache; now I am free from that pain, and my mouth is never stained with tobacco” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 12, p.404).

On the way to Utah, Brigham Young counseled the Mormons to “make beer as a drink” (John D. Lee, p. 116). Historian Hurbert Howe Bancroft says that “the first bar-room in S.L. City, and the only one for years, was in the Salt Lake House, owned by President Young and Feramorz Little” (History of Utah, p.540, footnote 44).

Stanley P. Hirshon writes:

In Utah the church dominated the liquor trade. In 1856 Caleb Green freighted six tons of tobacco, rum, whiskey, brandy, tea, and coffee across the plains for Young, and two years later The New York Times reported that the “principal drinking-saloon and gambling-room are in Salt Lake House, a building under the control of the Church and the immediate superintendency of Heber C. Kimball.” ...Young tried his best to rid himself of rival brewers (The Lion of the Lord, p.285).

On June 7, 1863, Brigham Young acknowledged publicly that he had built a distillery:

474


475

“When there was no whisky to be had here, and we needed it for rational purposes, I built a house to make it in. When the distillery was almost completed and in good working order, an army was heard of in our vicinity and I shut up the works; I did not make a gallon of whisky at my works, because it came here in great quantities, more than was needed” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p.206).

Hubert Howe Bancroft records: “Peter K. Dotson,... came to Salt Lake City in 1851, and was first employed by Brigham as manager of a distillery, afterwards becoming express and mail agent” (History of Utah, p.573, footnote 2). Josiah F. Gibbs provided further information concerning Brigham Young’s distillery:

During forty years the Mormon prophets absolutely controlled the city council and police force of Salt Lake....

Instead, however, of bringing their unappealable dictum to bear on the side of temperance and decent morals, the Prophet Brigham became a distiller of whiskey and other intoxicants, and high priests were the wholesale and retail distributors....

On July 2, 1861, the special committee, to whom was referred the subject of the manufacture and sale of liquor, presented a report reading as follows:

“To the Honorable Mayor of Salt Lake City: —

“Your committee, to whom was referred the subject of the manufacture and sale of spirituous liquor, would report that they visited several distilleries in and near the city and would respectfully recommend that the City Council purchase or rent the distillery erected by Brigham Young near the Mouth of Parley’s canyon, and put the same in immediate operation, employing such persons as shall be deemed necessary to manufacture a sufficient quantity to answer the public demand; controlling the sale of the same, and that the profits accruing therefrom be paid into the City Treasury.

(Signed)

Alderman Clinton,

Alderman Sheets,

Councilman Felt”

(Lights and Shadows of Mormonism, 1909, pp.248-49).

On July 26, 1890, Judge Orlando W. Powers gave a speech in which he charged:

It will please you to know that notwithstanding the fact that the

475


476

city had gone into the whisky business on its own hook, on August 19, 1862, it granted Brigham Young a license to distill peaches into brandy. August 11, 1865, Mr. Young and George Q. Cannon addressed the Council on the liquor question. Mr. Young said:

“This community needs vinegar and will require spirituous liquor for washing and for health, and it will be right and proper for the city to continue its sale as it has done and make a profit.

... Brigham Young kept an open account on the city books, and this account shows that from 1862 to 1872 there were 235 different charges for liquor purchased by him amounting in the aggregate to $9316.66, or an average of $846.97 per year...

“An examination of the official records of the United States shows that from 1862, when the tax on distilled spirits was first levied, until the coming of the Union Pacific railroad in 1869, which was the beginning of the Gentile era in Utah, thirty-seven distilleries existed in this Territory.... These facts, taken from public records, dispose of the charge that the Gentiles invaded a temperance community” (The Salt Lake Tribune, July 14, 1908).

According to John D. Lee, Brigham Young kept a large supply of liquor. Under the date of May 14 [15th], 1867, Lee recorded in his journal: “About 5 PM. Prest. B. Young & suite arrived ... On the following day I went to see him ... He had a decanter of splendid wine brought in of his own make & said, I want to treat Bro. Lee to as Good an article, I think, as can be bought in Dixie. The wine indeed was a Superiour article. He said that he had some 300 gallons & treated about 2000$ worth of liquers yearly & continued that we [he] wish[e]d that some one would take his wine at 5$ per gallon & sell it, where upon Pres. D. H. Wells said that he would take 200 gals. at 6$ a gallon &c.” (A Mormon Chronicle, The Diaries of John D. Lee, vol. 2, pp.71-72).

Leonard J. Arrington, now church historian, observed concerning the Word of Wisdom:

The strong and increased emphasis on the Word of Wisdom which characterized the official Mormon attitude throughout the remainder of the century appears to have begun in 1867....

The explanation for these rules and the widespread resolves to obey the Word of Wisdom seems to lie in the conditions of the Mormon economy ... it was necessary for the Latter-day Saints to develop and maintain a self-sufficient economy in their Rocky Mountain retreat.... There must be no waste of liquid assets on imported consumers’ goods.... Saints who used their cash to purchase imported Bull Durham, Battle-Axe plugs, tea, coffee, and similar “wasteful” (because not productive) products were

476


477

taking an action which was opposed to the economic interests of the territory. In view of this situation, President Young came to be unalterably opposed to the expenditure of money by the Saints on imported tea, coffee, and tobacco. It was consistent with the economics of the time that he should have had no great objection to tobacco chewing if the tobacco was grown locally. It was also consistent that he should have successfully developed a locally-produced “Mormon” tea to take the place of the imported article (Brigham Young University Studies, Winter 1959, pp.43-44).

Dr. Arrington quotes Brigham Young as saying:

I know of no better climate and soil than are here for the successful culture of tobacco. Instead of buying it in a foreign market and importing it over a thousand miles, why not raise it in our own country or do without it? ...

Tea is in great demand in Utah, and anything under that name sells readily at an extravagant price.... Tea can be produced in this Territory in sufficient quantities for home consumption, and if we raise it ourselves we know that we have the pure article. If we do not raise it, I would suggest that we do without it (Ibid., p.45).

In his sermons Brigham Young occasionally discussed the idea of Mormons producing their own tea, coffee, tobacco and whiskey:

You know that we all profess to believe the “Word of Wisdom.” There has been a great deal said about it.... We as Latter-day Saints, care but little about tobacco: but as “Mormons” we use a great deal.... The traders and passing emigration have sold tons of tobacco, besides what is sold here regularly. I say that $60,000 annually is the smallest figure I can estimate the sales at. Tobacco can be raised here as well as it can be raised in any other place. It wants attention and care. If we use it, let us raise it here. I recommend for some man to go to raising tobacco.... go to and make a business of raising tobacco and stop sending money out of the territory for that article.... We annually expend only $60,000 to break the “Word of Wisdom,” and we can save the money and still break it, if we will break it (Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p.35).

It is true that we do not raise our own tobacco: we might raise it if we would. We do not raise our tea; but we might raise it if we would, for tea-raising, this is as good a country as China; and the coffee bean can be raised a short distance south of us.... We can sustain ourselves; and as for such so-called luxuries as tea, coffee, tobacco and whiskey, we can produce them or do without them (Ibid., vol. 11, pp.113-14).

477


478

Brigham Young also recommended that the Mormons make wine. Angus M. Woodbury stated: “A circular was sent out to the various orders of the stake by Brigham Young and George A. Smith suggesting policies of operation. In brief, it suggested that fruit be canned or dried fit for any market; that wine be made at [a] few places under expert direction for exportation;...” (The Mormon United Order in Utah, p.9).

Leonard J. Arrington informs us that Brigham Young wanted most of the wine to be sold to the gentiles:

The attempts of the latter-day Saints in southern Utah and elsewhere to make wine are all illustrative of the dominating philosophy of economic self-sufficiency. One function of these enterprises, of course, was to provide wine for the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper.... Wine was used in the sacrament of the church as late as 1897. A more important function of winemaking, however, was to provide much-needed income for the poverty-striken pioneers in Utah’s Dixie. The intention was to sell most of the wine in mining communities in southern Utah and Nevada. Brigham Young instructed as follows: “First, by lightly pressing make a white wine. Then give a heavier pressing and make a colored wine. Then barrel up this wine, and if my counsel is taken, this wine will not be drunk here, but will be exported, and thus increase the fund.” More of the Dixie wine was consumed in the Mormon settlements than church officials had hoped, however, and the enterprise was discontinued before 1900 (Brigham Young University Studies, Winter 1959, pp.4647).

In his book Desert Saints (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1966. Copyright (c) 1942, 1966 by The University of Chicago. Quotations used by permission.), Nels Anderson discusses the problems resulting from the church’s involvement in making wine:

Wine-making was another Mormon enterprise that came to the same end as the cotton, iron, and silk missions. The St. George Tithing Office reported on March, 1887, a supply of 6,610 gallons of wine, valued at 50 cents per gallon.... The tithing office at St. George received wine of many grades. It met the problem by setting up standards. The tithing clerk issued these instructions on September 20, 1879:

“In order to obtain a more uniform grade of wine than we are able to obtain by mixing together the tithes of small pressings in the hands of sundry individuals; it is suggested that those having but small quantities of grapes to make up into wine, deliver their tithes in grapes at this office....”

Thus the church found itself the chief single producer of wine in

478


479

the Dixie area.... Because the tithing offices held the largest amount of wine for the market at any time, it was in a position to name the price. Church interest is evidenced in a letter sent by the St. George Tithing Office August 12, 1880. This letter was a bill sent to the managers in charge of building the Manti Temple, to whom had been sent a quantity of wine—4 barrels, or 158 gallons. It was not sold, but tithing credit was asked as follows: $187.50 for the wine; $20.00 for the barrels; for hauling the wine to Manti, $16.00; total $233.50. This was given in pay to the builders of the temple.

In 1889 Edward H. Snow, clerk of the St. George Tithing Office, wrote the presiding bishop at Salt Lake City regarding wine: “Our sales during the year do not amount to half of what we are obliged to make up from the grapes that are brought in.... We have made at this office alone over 600 gallons this year. We cannot refuse the grapes or the wine, and I see no way to get rid of it.” Snow wanted the presiding bishop to take the surplus. Later the tithing office sent men with loads of wine to the northern settlements, where they traded Dixie’s liquid wealth for wheat and flour or took it to the mining camps....

Dixie brethren did not follow Brother Brigham’s counsel. They drank so much of the wine that by 1890 drunkenness was a worry to the church leaders. The tithing office discontinued accepting wine for tithes and abandoned its own presses (pp.373-74).

Since the St. George Tithing Office, as a practical measure, had originally joined with the farmers in making wine, the church authorities were much embarrassed in pushing their drive against wine-drinkers. About 1887 the tithing office discontinued making wine. The passing of Silver Reef as a market left the producers with quantities of wine on hand. The tithing office managed, as well as it could, to get rid of the more than six thousand gallons on hand.

From the moral angle, church leaders were forced to recognize that their people could not be makers of liquor without being drinkers of it, too. There were too many drinkers of wine and too few moderate drinkers among them (p.436).

(Jerald and Sandra Tanner, The Changing World of Mormonism The Word of Wisdom, Chapter 18, Pp 474-479)


902 posted on 04/29/2009 9:28:10 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 899 | View Replies]

To: reaganaut
Well you enjoy your version of self-flagellation from the tradition of men "filty rags and depravity...

I am glad to know I am a child of God and have the comfort of knowing I will have the Spirit of the Lord with me when I keep Lord's commandments.

D&C 20:

77 O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it, that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him and keep his commandments which he has given them; that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

• • •

79 O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this wine to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

When the spirit of the Lord is with one His present than one resides in that place of righteousness.

When one is not under the influence of the Lord than they are living by the letter law and remain in the state of filty rags!

1 John 2

25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

903 posted on 04/29/2009 9:31:42 PM PDT by restornu
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 882 | View Replies]

To: reaganaut

I can not continue with you if you reference JOD as doctrine
I been over this many times.

It seems you need to justify your reason for leaving for your misunderstanding of the works or it could be an excuse I don’t know...

But it is not honest to misrepresent!

This keep posting things and try to lable it as scripture reminds me of one who keeps throwing pasta against the wall to see if it will stick hoping it is done!

LOL


904 posted on 04/29/2009 9:38:08 PM PDT by restornu
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 897 | View Replies]

To: colorcountry

Ok wait a minute.
I missed this one.
Are you saying that the US Constitution is going to fall and only an ldser will be able to restore it?
Or am I missing the point here.
If thats the case no wonder there is such a push for Mitt.


905 posted on 04/29/2009 10:18:15 PM PDT by svcw (There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who know binary and those who don't.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 865 | View Replies]

To: Tennessee Nana

Bormon is used to WASH the body - not drink!

D&C 89:7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.


906 posted on 04/30/2009 3:40:49 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 878 | View Replies]

To: Tennessee Nana
Exactly where in the book of mormon are the following doctrines taught?

You pesky ANTI!!!

You KNOW that the MILK has to come before the MEAT!

MORONI only RESTORED the Church - GOD later REVEALED it into the glory that it is now!!

--MormonDupe(Oh - you ARE aware that we MORMONS are waiting for even MORE things to be revealed; right?)

907 posted on 04/30/2009 3:43:07 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 878 | View Replies]

To: reaganaut
Sorry, Resty but your leaders would disagree with you...

That's right!!

Just wait until her annual checkup!

908 posted on 04/30/2009 3:44:43 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 884 | View Replies]

To: Tennessee Nana

You da Beast and a third!


909 posted on 04/30/2009 3:45:30 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 890 | View Replies]

To: restornu
You can read into things what you want but what is in the LDS Standard Works is doctrine and nothing else!

SOME folks on this thread are either WOEFULLY uninformed or they are a LYING.

The SECRET Temple Rituals® are NOT Scriptural - are NOT in the Standard Works - and therefore, by DEFINITION - are Teachings of Men!!

910 posted on 04/30/2009 3:49:14 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 895 | View Replies]

To: Tennessee Nana
Leonard J. Arrington informs us...

CASTAWAY

http://www.arringtonranch.com/

911 posted on 04/30/2009 4:03:02 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 902 | View Replies]

To: restornu
 
But it is not honest to misrepresent!
 
Ha ha HA!!!

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/17#17

  17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
  18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
  19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
  20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother,
“I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”
 
 
 

912 posted on 04/30/2009 4:05:33 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 904 | View Replies]

To: restornu
This keep posting things and try to lable it as scripture reminds me of one who keeps throwing pasta against the wall to see if it will stick hoping it is done!

Can the REASON that Temple Rituals are NOT in the Standard Works be explained by you?

913 posted on 04/30/2009 4:06:49 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 904 | View Replies]

To: svcw

Yeppers. That’s what I’m sayin.’

Since United States Senator Orrin Hatch, a faithful Mormon, announced his candidacy in 1999 for the office of President of the United States, there has been growing interest in how he views the U.S. Constitution and one of Joseph Smith’s little known prophecies. In the Salt Lake Tribune, Nov. 11, 1999, there was an article titled, “Did Hatch Allude To LDS Prophecy?” The article stated:

Sen. Orrin Hatch has denied his Republican presidential campaign is motivated by a longing to fulfill an obscure Mormon myth. But during an interview with a Mormon Church-owned radio station this week he borrowed the exact phrasing of the apocalyptic belief.

According to the so-called “White Horse Prophecy,” the U.S. Constitution will be hanging by a thread and a church elder from Zion will ride in on a metaphorical white horse and save it.

Utah’s senior senator . . . complained that Democrats’ political correctness will be the ruin of the country.

“They tolerate everything that’s bad, and they’re intolerant of everything that’s good. Religious freedom is going to go down the drain, too,” Hatch said. “I’ve never seen it worse than this, where the Constitution literally is hanging by a thread.”

. . . Wright [the radio interviewer], also a Mormon said Hatch clearly was “talking to his folks” in the church audience and his use of the phrase was the buzz of the station afterward.

After Orrin came Romney - then it looks like Huntsman might be next. They’re pushing for it.


914 posted on 04/30/2009 5:16:25 AM PDT by colorcountry (A faith without truth is not true faith.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 905 | View Replies]

To: Elsie

Good morni9ng Elsie...

“Beast and a third!”

OK

:)


915 posted on 04/30/2009 5:45:15 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 909 | View Replies]

To: Elsie

Mormons gots “Teachings of Men!!” ?????

Oh, noes

:(


916 posted on 04/30/2009 5:47:31 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 910 | View Replies]

To: Elsie

throwing pasta against the wall to see if it will stick hoping it is done!
________________________________________________

Sp that’s how bro Joe got all them it-came-to-pastas in the bom...

Emma was cookin’ up some pasta and got to close to Joey Smith when she was tryin’ it out to see if it was done...

They just kinda drop into the bom..

See, it was Emma’s fault...

“And it-did-come-to-pasta that Nephi did discover great fields of it-came-to-pasta pasta growing in Bountiful..

And thereupon, Nephi did proclaim, “One day soonest, a great mormon named Parco Molo will discover this it-came-to-pasta pasta, also, and will take some to his home in a land far off. And it-will-come-to-pasta, he will planteth some there, and it will come to paqsta, he will reap a Bountiful-type harvest of it-came-to-pasta.”

And thats the rest of the story...

This has been your lovely voice of Kolob...

:)


917 posted on 04/30/2009 6:07:51 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 913 | View Replies]

To: restornu; reaganaut
It seems you need to justify your reason for leaving for your misunderstanding of the works or it could be an excuse I don’t know...
But it is not honest to misrepresent!

Well, resty, this post seems to impute a motive, read Reaganaut's mind and call her a liar at the same time.

918 posted on 04/30/2009 6:15:17 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Obama....never saw a Bush molehill he couldn't make a mountain out of.......)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 904 | View Replies]

To: colorcountry
Interesting.
So in a small way the lds need to get out there and help god accomplish what needs to be done. Oh, I guess that makes sense if you feel god was once us.
I don't believe God needs help to accomplish His goals and desires.
Yea, people are called but they don't go around telling the public...look at me look at me.......
The mighty men and women of God that I know don't have to tell me or anyone they are might men and women of God, it is obvious.
919 posted on 04/30/2009 6:49:53 AM PDT by svcw (There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who know binary and those who don't.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 914 | View Replies]

To: greyfoxx39
Well, resty, this post seems to impute a motive, read Reaganaut's mind and call her a liar at the same time.

It is designed to put the hearer in a defensive mode - hoping to change the subject.

Sorta like a skink losing it's tail to a predator so it can scurry away to the underbrush to hide.

920 posted on 04/30/2009 8:01:42 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 918 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 881-900901-920921-940 ... 1,001-1,020 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson