The Second Coming Happened Already

[OPREV]

Nineteen hundred and seventy five years ago, This is the discussion that went on between Jesus and his disciples -

Mat 24:3 As Jesus sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him in private. "Tell us when all this will be," they asked, "and what will happen to show that it is the time for your coming and the end of the age."

Mat 24:4 Jesus answered, ....

Mat 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky; and all the peoples of the land will weep as they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 24:31 The great trumpet will sound, and he will send out his angels to the four corners of the earth, and they will gather his chosen people from one end of the world to the other.

And the most important part ----

Mat 24:34 Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died.

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Jesus told the disciples he would come back and take them to heaven in their lifetime. If he didn't come back, then, he lied.

Another translation of verse 34

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till ALL these things be accomplished.

Jesus told the disciples that their generation would not pass away, until he came back and took them to heaven.

Jesus came back, in the 1st century, like he said he would, and, his angels gathered the elect and they went back to heaven. Which means, we live in the millenium.

Rev 20:4 ...and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, ... and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The Greek word used for the "thousand years" is chilioi. Chilioi is a plural word, meaning, 2000, or more. Thus, the millenium would be 2000 or more years.

And we would be at this point in history -

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Rev 20:8 and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 20:9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down out of heaven, and devoured them.

And the next thing we would see is, the Bride coming out of Heaven

Rev 21:9 And there came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls, who were laden with the seven last plagues; and he spake with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the wife of the Lamb.

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,

Jesus came back & the early church left, with him. The rapture is past, the beast & false prophet also, the two witnesses are long gone, as are the 144,000. We live at the very end of history, when Satan is let loose, the armies from the North attack God's people, fire from the sky comes down and kills them, and there is a new heaven and new earth. And the final act is the Bride coming out of heaven. And then it's over. :)

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[topcat54]

If you would have reviewed the video, you would have discovered:

The link didn't work.

the belief systems of the Pharisees during the second temple era, Why Yah'shua rebuked the Pharisees for impugning the Word of Elohim The names of Gordon's books, that there are some true versions of Shem-Tov there are specious versions of Shem-Tov.

Since you seem to be talking about historical information, where can I go to document any of the claims from a source that does not have an axe to grind.

After all, why should I believe an apostate Karaite Jew who is trying to discredit the apostate rabbinic Jews using the medieval writings of one of their own using Jesus Christ as the foil?

The names of Gordon's books,

If you know the name of such books, why not just share them?

[firebrand]

I don't know where you get the "two groups of witnesses." Scripture seems pretty clear on this.

As for your second remark, I was answering someone who thought the Rapture happened already.

[Uri’el-2012]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2662031810327980639

[topcat54]

Still looking for you answer to the following:

Since you seem to be talking about historical information, where can I go to document any of the claims from a source that does not have an axe to grind.

After all, why should I believe an apostate Karaite Jew who is trying to discredit the apostate rabbinic Jews using the medieval writings of one of their own using Jesus Christ as the foil?

[topcat54]

Can you give me a hint where in this somewhat insufferable 2 hour video he addresses the historicity of the Hebrew Matthew text? His mannerism are hard to take.

[Ping-Pong]

I don't know where you get the "two groups of witnesses." Scripture seems pretty clear on this.

I always saw the witnesses as two entities but a friend pointed out some verses that show what is really being said. The witnesses are the "very elect" that are....

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

[Uri’el-2012]

Can you give me a hint where in this somewhat insufferable 2 hour video he addresses the historicity of the Hebrew Matthew text?

His mannerism are hard to take.

Reflect on your anti-semitism.

That will help you understand.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai

[topcat54]

Reflect on your anti-semitism.

I didn't realize those were Semite mannerisms. I didn't realize there were distinctively Semite mannerisms. Learn something new every day.

Where does he start addressing the historicity of the Hebrew Matthew text? I'm really not interested in watching one side of a grudge match between apostates.

[RetiredArmy]

Not hardly. If Jesus had come again, there would be a lot of liberals, dimocrats, homos, Marxists, all missing today.

[Uri’el-2012]

I didn't realize those were Semite mannerisms. I didn't realize there were distinctively Semite mannerisms. Learn something new every day.

Where does he start addressing the historicity of the Hebrew Matthew text? I'm really not interested in watching one side of a grudge match between apostates.

Did Yah'shua speak to Rav Sh'aul in Hebrew ?

12 "While so engaged as I was journeying to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests,

13 at midday, O King, I saw on the way a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining all around me and those who were journeying with me.

14 "And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew dialect, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'

or did Rav Sh'aul preach in Hebrew ?

40 When he had given him permission, Paul, standing on the stairs, motioned to the people with his hand; and when there was a great hush, he spoke to them in the Hebrew dialect, saying,

NAU Acts 22:1 "Brethren and fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you."

2 And when they heard that he was addressing them in the Hebrew dialect, they became even more quiet; and he said,

3 "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated under Gamaliel, strictly according to the law of our fathers, being zealous for God just as you all are today.

4 "I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and putting both men and women into prisons,

5 as also the high priest and all the Council of the elders can testify. From them I also received letters to the brethren, and started off for Damascus in order to bring even those who were there to Jerusalem as prisoners to be punished.

6 "But it happened that as I was on my way, approaching Damascus about noontime, a very bright light suddenly flashed from heaven all around me,

7 and I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?'

8 "And I answered, 'Who are You, Lord?' And He said to me, 'I am Jesus the Nazarene, whom you are persecuting.'

9 "And those who were with me saw the light, to be sure, but did not understand the voice of the One who was speaking to me.

10 "And I said, 'What shall I do, Lord?' And the Lord said to me, 'Get up and go on into Damascus, and there you will be told of all that has been appointed for you to do.'

11 "But since I could not see because of the brightness of that light, I was led by the hand by those who were with me and came into Damascus.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai

[Ping-Pong]

Not hardly. If Jesus had come again, there would be a lot of liberals, dimocrats, homos, Marxists, all missing today :) Well said!

[topcat54]

Did Yah'shua speak to Rav Sh'aul in Hebrew ?

Let me try again, since perhaps you have a hard time with English.

Where does Mr Gordon start addressing the historicity of the alleged original Hebrew version of the gospel of Matthew (hereafter AOHM)? I'm really not interested in watching one side of a grudge match between apostates.

So, try setting aside the non sequitur and address the issue. In fact, let's go back to the beginning. You admonished me:

Good Luck in your search for Truth.

after commenting about a Hebrew work by one Shem Tov. (The work appears to be an attempt by medieval Jews to revise history and erase the clear messianic claims regarding Jesus from the Gospel of Matthew. “Many scholars view the text as a mediaeval translation from the Greek text of the Gospel of Matthew, as well as being the likely source of all later Hebrew versions of Matthew prior to the 20th century.” Wikipedia)

I asked about the historicity of this AOHM. You responded:

If you were intellectually open to understanding, I would recommend that you view this two hour video by Nehemia Gordon

So here we are with this video, made by an unbelieving Jew who is out to prove other unbelieving Jews are wrong about something. He's interpreting the Christian NT according to his own unbelieving views, and I have yet to discover any historically verifiable claim regarding the AOHM.

Good Luck in your search for Truth.

I think with this level of cooperation I need more than good luck.

[Uri’el-2012]

Let me try again, since perhaps you have a hard time with English.

I can not help you if you are intellectually lazy.

[Uri’el-2012]

I will not help someone who so rabidly anti-semitic.

Mazol Tov.

Enjoy your life.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai

[topcat54]

I will not help someone who so rabidly anti-semitic.

A convenient cop-out since nothing I've said is anti-Semitic by any objective standard.

You claims are transparently false.

[topcat54]

The Shem Tov Matthew or any Hebrew Matthews, originated in Europe between 1300-1500. Precisely, Shem Tov or Shem Tob is dated 1380, while DuTillet and Muenster are about 1550. Together they make up the "Middle Ages Matthews" but, they are very different, and as one stated, that is one of the ironies.

Shem Tov's "Matthew", or Shem Tob's Matthew as some call it, which textual critics will tell you, is nothing more than an altered medieval text, which is a corrupt copy of the Latin text, which was originally copied from the Greek by those who didn't believe in Christ. Most legitimate textual critics have all but ignored this middle age manuscript.

The truth is that uninformed believers are being led by unbelievers to accept an altered anti-Christian version of Matthew that was included in the writing titled "Even Bohan" or "The Touchstone." This document was authored by Shem Tov, an unbelieving anti-Christian Jewish writer who some have referred to as a theologian, who resided in Spain during the fourteenth century. His copy of Hebrew Matthew has anti-Christian polemical commentary by him throughout the text.

The Jewish Encyclopedia states this about the author of the Even Bohan:

"...As a Talmudic scholar he carried on a correspondence with Sheshet. At Tarazona he completed his "Eben Bohan" (May, 1380 or 1385), a polemical work against baptized Jews..." [IBN SHAPRUT (SHAFRUT, By : Richard Gottheil ; Meyer Kayserling www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=43&letter=I&search=shem%20tov%2",,-1,0,,,,]

The Restoration Scriptures True Name Edition (RSTNE)

[topcat54]

So I watched this video and found his “explanation” of Shem Tov Matthew beginning around the 1 hour mark. I found nothing that could be used to objectively authenticate the notion that this Hebrew version of Matthew is a 1st century production by the actual apostle Matthew. Nothing he said could conclusively discount the mainstream view that it was, in fact, a medieval anti-Christian production by Jewish anti-missionaries. It seemed intent to downplay the idea that Jesus is messiah by expunging any reference to “the anointed one” from the text entirely. Gordon himself sounds like a Karaite proselyte intent on gathering other unsuspecting proselytes to that sect.

I still fail to see why any Christian would put any stock in an intramural squabble among apostates from the faith of Abraham.